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Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by comex on Saturday February 13, 2021 @12:01PM (#26124748)
> > He denounced the neoreactionaries, the anti-democratic, often racist movement popularized by Curtis Yarvin. But he also gave them a platform. His “blog roll” — the blogs he endorsed — included the work of Nick Land, a British philosopher whose writings on race, genetics and intelligence have been embraced by white nationalists.

> So he denounced the works of one person who believes bad things, but he also linked to a second person, who may or may not believe bad things, but is liked by a third group of people who also believe bad things, so...logically...that must mean he actually does...support the first person? Despite denouncing them, because he didn't link to them, which proves...something…?

Nowhere in the paragraph you quoted does it allege Scott supported Curtis Yarvin personally. What it implies is that Nick Land is one of the "neoreactionaries", which, according to Wikipedia [1], he is.

The "embraced by white nationalists" part is a bit more tricky. It does imply that Land's writings are bad because white nationalists like them (more than others do). In the abstract, of course, this is not necessarily true.

Perhaps it's just a coincidence that white nationalists like him, or he's just a symbol; one can like country music without liking conservatism. (But it's unlikely he's merely a symbol when he literally writes about race.)

Perhaps his writings are relevant but they're misinterpreting him; Social Darwinism does not implicate Darwin.

But a third possibility is that his writings are just racist – though perhaps cloaked, perhaps the motte in the metaphorical motte and bailey – and as such provide an intellectual foundation for white supremacy.

Personally, I'm not sure what the answer is, because I don't know much about these people. But my priors point to the third option as most likely, given how intellectual movements tend to be organized. Which means that the fact of his being embraced by white nationalists was informative, which means it was appropriate for the reporter to include it. Sure, if the reporter is omitting some critical evidence or context that would lead to an opposite conclusion, that would be unethical. But the reporter is not obliged to include every argument that could possibly be made in his defense, either.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by trenchgun on Saturday February 13, 2021 @12:19PM (#26124897)
It is also ridiculous to smear Nick Land because he is "ebraced by white nationalists".

For fucks sake, just read something Nick Land has written in recent years and let him smear himself. He literally argues for "hyper racism", composed of scientific racism and eugenics. He also has promoted Atomwaffen affiliated Order of Nine Angles. A literal neonazi terrorist network.

A pathetic hit piece.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by whoooooo123 on Saturday February 13, 2021 @01:17PM (#26125404)
I've never heard of Nick Land but this 'person X is bad because nasty person Y likes him' smear tactic has got to die.

Osama bin Laden cited Noam Chomsky in some of his anti-America diatribes, does this mean Noam Chomsky should be blamed in any way (even slightly) for the actions of Al Qaeda?

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by xxpor on Saturday February 13, 2021 @05:48PM (#26127733)
Isn't that analogy backwards? It'd be Noam Chomsky citing Bin Laden in his writing. SSC linked to Nick Land, not the other way around.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by a1369209993 on Saturday February 13, 2021 @07:16PM (#26128397)
No, (I'm pretty sure) they're referring to:

> > It is also ridiculous to smear Nick Land because he is "ebraced by white nationalists".

Edit, with:

> this 'person X is bad because nasty person Y likes him' smear tactic has got to die.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by whoooooo123 on Sunday February 14, 2021 @03:20AM (#26130563)
Correct
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by lasagnaphil on Saturday February 13, 2021 @03:13PM (#26126375)
Yeah, I've got to know Nick Land from Mark Fisher, who was a student of his and jointly participated in the CCRU (Cybernetics Culture Research Unit). Mark Fisher was the one who later wrote his most well-known book "Capitalist Realism", which was my first thorough introduction to leftist politics. Fisher would later decry Land's neo-reactionary turn (perhaps most explicitly in his post "Terminator vs Avator: notes on accelerationism", https://markfisherreblog.tumblr.com/post/32522465887/termina...), but he still acknowledged Land's accelerationist influence on him in the earlier years.

Land's history is... very interesting. His earlier works (such as "Kant, Capital, and the Prohibition of Incest") shows his materialist roots, but over time he began to be influenced heavily by the CCRU (which cyberfeminist Sadie Plant created) and Deleuze and Guatarri's works on schizoanalysis, along with a heavy doze of amphetamines(!). In his most productive, drug-fueled form he wrote what he called "theory-fiction", Deleuzian theory combined with fiction (cyberpunk, horror), leading to writings such as "Circitries" and "Meltdown". Land might have been overappreciated in the creation of accelerationist philosophy, but I still think he was an incredible poet. Sadly, his overreliance on drugs literally "broke" him, and after some physical/mental health issues he moved to Shanghai and after that became the neo-reactionary we know today. I think it's a quite lame ending to his philosophy career, many of his collegues tried to persuade him to budge towards the left and failed, and Land himself says that he wants to leave behind his amphetamine-fueled past self.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by twic on Saturday February 13, 2021 @02:47PM (#26126146)
I'm not an expert on this stuff, but taken at face value, hyper-racism is the idea that humanity will evolve into eloi and morlocks, and is explicitly not about "black people are inferior" or anything like that.

What seem to me to be the key quotes [1]:

> The most prominent model of such a filter is found in the theory of assortative mating. [...] It is assortative mating on the basis of [socio-economic status] that has lifted it to prominence, both because it seems unquestionably to be happening, and because the implications of its happening are extreme.

> Assortative mating tends to genetic diversification. This is neither the preserved diversity of ordinary racism, still less the idealized genetic pooling of the anti-racists, but a class-structured mechanism for population diremption, on a vector towards neo-speciation. It implies the disintegration of the human species, along largely unprecedented lines, with intrinsic hierarchical consequence.

> The genetically self-filtering elite is not merely different — and becoming ever more different — it is explicitly superior according to the established criteria that allocate social status.

> That it is a consummate nightmare for anti-racism goes without question, but it is also trans-racial, infra-racial, and hyper-racial in ways that leave ‘race politics’ as a gibbering ruin in its wake.

Whilst it is clumsily reinventing ideas that have been done better a million times already in science fiction, it doesn't seem very neonazi.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20141007023855/http://alternativ...

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by nyolfen on Saturday February 13, 2021 @01:04PM (#26125300)
citation? land has racist and extreme social-darwinist views but afaik he holds identitarian political movements in contempt, he is more of a nietzschean anti-human trying to usher in a machine god than anything like nazi politics
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by tpush on Saturday February 13, 2021 @01:23PM (#26125449)
Racism and extreme social-darwinistic views are pretty much the core of nazi thought.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by nyolfen on Saturday February 13, 2021 @05:25PM (#26127574)
white nationalism is the core of contemporary nazism; land has no sentimental attachment to the white race or even people in general, but rather sees intelligence (abstractly) acting via darwinian selection as the agent of history. this is not limited to human intelligence; he sees capitalism as an intelligent process, and inextricable from AI, which he expects to subsume humans.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by NovaJehovah on Saturday February 13, 2021 @02:21PM (#26125945)
Violent revolution and utopianism were core beliefs of both Nazism and Bolshevism. Individual rights are a core belief of both social democratic liberalism and anarcho-capitalism. The existence of Satan is a core belief of both Christians and Satanists.

A and B sharing core beliefs does not mean A == B.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by parineum on Saturday February 13, 2021 @05:48PM (#26127732)
You point stands but most Satanism actually doesn't actually believe in a literal Satan, they identify with him as an allegory.

The largest sects, The Church of Satan (athiest) and the Satanic Temple (non-theist) don't have a belief in Satan as a deity.

There is a subset that actually does though but they are a minority of a minority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Satanism

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by NovaJehovah on Saturday February 13, 2021 @06:00PM (#26127840)
Thanks for the correction. I didn't realize that!
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by lasagnaphil on Saturday February 13, 2021 @03:29PM (#26126528)
Nick Land's probably the one of the most fascinating outliers among philosophers though. His philosophy career is very sharply divided in two parts: the first part involves leftist materialism + Deleuze-Guattarian schizoanalysis + cyberpunk + gothic/Lovecraftian horror + a whole lot of drugs. But his heavy amphetamine usage kinda "broke" him, and after that the second part involves dealing with drug withdrawal along with a heavy doze of right-wing libertarianism and hyperfascism. I really don't like the latter half for obvious reasons (but critiquing him more fundamentally, he seems to have an incredibly warped view on evolution which is making him fall back into outdated eugenics, and also he has a habit of viewing technological progress and capitalist progress as the same thing). I still read some of his earlier works though.
Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by drak0n1c on Saturday February 13, 2021 @04:16PM (#26127020)
Wikipedia has long been unreliable when it comes to politically tangential articles, especially ones that cast characterizations. Wikipedia Cofounder Larry Sanger said so on his blog:

https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by Tuna-Fish on Saturday February 13, 2021 @01:32PM (#26125516)
What I understand from his writings is that Scott feels that Nick land has made interesting observations and had novel new thoughts, and has then followed them off a cliff. For example, from Meditations on Moloch: [0]

> But the thing about grail quests is – if you make a wrong turn two blocks away from your house, you end up at the corner store feeling mildly embarrassed. If you do almost everything right and then miss the very last turn, you end up being eaten by the legendary Black Beast of Aaargh whose ichorous stomach acid erodes your very soul into gibbering fragments.

> As far as I can tell from reading his blog, Nick Land is the guy in that terrifying border region where he is smart enough to figure out several important arcane principles about summoning demon gods, but not quite smart enough to figure out the most important such principle, which is NEVER DO THAT.

[0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by twic on Saturday February 13, 2021 @02:40PM (#26126097)
This is key. Nick Land is not fungible here, not either an interchangeable racist or an interchangeable cipher who some racists like. He's someone who started off as an interesting and creative thinker who had a lot of influence on the blob of lefty internet-flavoured critical theory philosophy stuff which still drives the online intellectual left [1], but then veered off into unproductive nastiness.

I suppose the link is there because Scott Alexander thinks that he's written some stuff which is worth reading, and that readers of the blog will be able to distinguish that from the rubbish. Needless to say, this is completely outside a present-day NYT journalist's model of the world.

[1] https://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/10459/1/...

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by MikeUt on Saturday February 13, 2021 @12:05PM (#26124779)
> Personally, I'm not sure what the answer is, because I don't know much about these people.

If only a world-famous newspaper could look into this and find out, so that you would not have to guess.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by comex on Saturday February 13, 2021 @12:29PM (#26124993)
The problem is that the answer is largely a matter of opinion.

The article author could have simply labeled his writings as "racist" or "not racist", but newspaper articles traditionally stick to reporting sourced facts and quoted opinions and let the reader draw their own conclusion.

Alternately, the author could have provided context about Land in the form of additional facts and opinions. This would undoubtedly make the article more informative, but it would also make it longer. There are plenty of other things the article could have added context about, but ultimately the format demands a certain length.

I do think the article is suggesting that he's racist. Newspaper articles have to choose which facts and quotes to include and how to integrate them into a narrative, and those choices inevitably betray the author's opinions. In general, I think this phenomenon of hidden opinions is harmful. It's a downside of the traditional practice of separating factual articles from opinion, since it gives readers a false sense of having learned the objective truth when in fact what they've absorbed is partially someone's opinion. When newer media platforms choose to eschew the distinction between fact and opinion in favor of presenting an authentic but opinionated voice, there's merit in that. But I think there is also merit in the traditional approach of trying to preserve that distinction, even if the results are inevitably imperfect. I wouldn't want the New York Times to give up on it.

Re:Silicon Valley’s Safe Space by lliamander on Saturday February 13, 2021 @12:10PM (#26124825)
But instead we just have the NYT.