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Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by surfsvammel on Friday February 05, 2021 @01:11PM (#26039356)
Hacker news is one of the places where I often value the comments more than the linked articles themselves. But wow. This thread is full of pseudo-science type reasoning. Let’s be careful. We have science and the scientific methods to investigate things like this. It’s worked very well for us for a long time, let’s try to have som faith in it.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by npsimons on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:26PM (#26040189)
> Hacker news is one of the places where I often value the comments more than the linked articles themselves. But wow. This thread is full of pseudo-science type reasoning.

It's been this way for years. HN is really quite good when it comes to things in their wheelhouse (software, tech companies), but hilariously bad about diet and related issues, I suspect because it's a sore spot for many and they are in denial.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by pas on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:42PM (#26040356)
Diet is one of the things that's absolutely full of bad science, because it's hard to study. So claiming HN is somehow in denial implies there's an amazing scientific consensus. (Also even if we take the best studies at face value the relative risk differences are ridiculously low between diets. [At least as far as I know.])
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by npsimons on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:48PM (#26040412)
> (Also even if we take the best studies at face value the relative risk differences are ridiculously low between diets. [At least as far as I know.])

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm willing to bet that just like me, you're not an expert in that field. And there are people who are experts in the field, reviewing the literature, and have come up with a pretty good consensus.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by throwaway09223 on Friday February 05, 2021 @06:35PM (#26042560)
Here's the thing: It's pretty easy to chat with a bunch of experts and test your hypothesis.

In fact, I've recently done so owing to some recent health issues. As best I can tell there's almost no consensus among experts aside from "everything in moderation" and "eat a balanced diet" which isn't directed advice as much as hedging.

I have asked the various experts I've talked to why advice is so varied and their answer is that there is no consensus on many of these issues. Some had their own opinions about which parts might be right, others were clearly in the "it's a mess, just don't eat too much and wait and see" camp.

This is not a well developed field.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by bdauvergne on Friday February 05, 2021 @05:28PM (#26042015)
What if there is no field to talk about ? Most people cannot believe that some part of science are not as advanced as others. But there are good reasons, nobody care enough to throw enough money at tit. Look at obesity in the US, if someone cared about it, if would be fixed. Much more money was thrown at advancing internal combustion motors than improving diet of the average citizen of the USA.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by tryonenow on Friday February 05, 2021 @05:40PM (#26042133)
I think it's reasonable for laymen to be skeptical of expert consensus in soft, non-experimental fields, especially when the consensus frequently changes significantly and is strongly influenced by industry, e.g. the views on dietary sugar/fat, cause of alzheimer's, lobotomies...

Particularly when consensus is not unanimous.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by pas on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:52PM (#26040448)
I never claimed I was.

I'm basically regurgitating the Bad Food Bible book (written by Aaron Carroll, the guy who hosts HealthCareTriage).

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by npsimons on Friday February 05, 2021 @03:01PM (#26040535)
Well, I'm regurgitating a Dr. Greger of https://nutritionfacts.org, who is constantly reading studies and papers to get to the bottom of dietary science. You're welcome to spool through his hours of video on YouTube on the subject (where he quotes excerpts from studies he's read), or maybe just start with this one on gut flora and obesity:

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/gut-flora-obesity/

Sources are under the video.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by pas on Friday February 05, 2021 @03:21PM (#26040716)
Yes, so. The linked video is about a n=30 observational study. "Diet science" is full of this. (At least this study explicitly noted that no inference regarding health outcomes were made.)

The guy is fighting the good fight (against USDA and so on), but this is still the HN is hilariously bad at diet and related issues.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by breakfastduck on Friday February 05, 2021 @03:32PM (#26040829)
Dude there is far from a 'consensus' in this field.

Recommending reading one guys opinion on it sorta proves the point.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by Lopiolis on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:29PM (#26040223)
Well, more than diet, anything that isn't technical in nature. Economics, (geo-)politics, biology (particularly humans), etc. There's a lot of that fallacy around here that being knowledgeable/smart in one area means that obviously it transfers to every other field.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by npsimons on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:36PM (#26040291)
I just remember a while back fecal transplants came up here (and other forums I frequent) as a "treatment" for obesity, as they found different gut flora between obese and healthy weight populations. So many people were thinking they could get a fecal transplant to cure their obesity, not stopping to ask maybe what was causing gut flora to be different between obese and healthy weight populations.

And as for diet, the studies are out there. I'm no expert, but I listen to people who could credibly be argued are (as one example Dr. Greger who reads tons of studies and cites them in his videos), and typically their advice comes down to common wisdom that people just don't want to hear: eat food, not too much, mostly plants.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by hinkley on Friday February 05, 2021 @03:50PM (#26041009)
The scientific method works at a very slow pace and goes even slower when public opinion is against an idea.

We have a lot of known unknowns about gut biota. And a lot of people whose gut biota are literally killing them. And a lot of friends and family of those people. They are of course going to be frustrated. Especially when they look at how long those question marks have existed. Get to it already!

Feyman’s wife died while the antibiotic that saved people like her was in drug trials. Can you imagine being that close to a cure and missing it? When I read about people dying of infections mid century I have to pull up my calendar and just pity them a little bit more.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by specialist on Saturday February 06, 2021 @12:41AM (#26044411)
> scientific method works at a very slow pace

Listening to a recap of the effort to test the theories of relativity, it occurred to me that confirming "truth" may be just as hard as refuting falsehoods. It's certainly not easy.

Brandolini's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by surfsvammel on Friday February 05, 2021 @04:54PM (#26041714)
I am not sure what you mean by ‘the scientific method is slow’. Compared to what, really? Just winging it? But I think I see what you mean. And yes, science do take time. From discoveries in basic science, all the way to clinical trials and then treatment approval, there is significant lead time. And, of course, it is especially sad for those who suffer when treatment seem to be just around the corner.

But the alternative is surely worse; to not test, to not review or to base treatment on other things than facts.

And, one more thing. The speed at which we have scienced the shit out of Covid (the amount of science that we have done in response to this virus) is, at least to me, astounding. If we succeed, which it looks like we will, to win this battle using the vaccines which are already available, it, not only, is in favour of science in fact being very quick, but could also be considered one of humanities greatest feats.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by robocat on Friday February 05, 2021 @05:44PM (#26042168)
> The speed at which we have scienced the shit out of Covid

Alternatively I have been absolutely appalled at how slow our institutions have been to respond correctly in so many ways.

1. Anosmia: it took months before I heard about it, and months before it got added to lists of symptoms. A common and distinctive signal back before we had testing was an opportunity lost.

2. The emphasis on hand washing and the de-emphasis of transmission by air... dangerously retarded.

3. The whole face masks bullshit - all the probabilities pointed towards their use being beneficial... because even small reductions to the speed of transmission can reduce exponential growth.

4. The lack of information about real-world testing of transmission - presumably virus transmission was tested on people in more than one authoritarian country, yet I never saw the results of that testing surface.

The above are only some of the significant delays that I saw in the transmission of science and fact during the epidemic, and I haven’t even really looked into the topic in depth (mostly I just skimmed HN for information).

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by specialist on Saturday February 06, 2021 @12:47AM (#26044436)
I spent 10 years battling anxiety. Went away when I had a lumbar fusion. Surprise!

My best guess is my pinched nerve caused the sensation which I then experienced emotionally. Exactly no one any where suggested the possibility of a physical cause to an emotional state.

Scientific progress is not a straight line. More like bumps in the dark.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by DangitBobby on Saturday February 06, 2021 @11:11AM (#26047455)
I definitely think that my back pain effects me emotionally and saps my happiness. I'm way grumpier than I ever used to be. (I also wonder if chronic inflammation causes an autoimmune-like response which is resulting in other new conditions like heartburn).

I think the body plays a much larger role in our emotional and mental states than we give it credit for.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by wutbrodo on Saturday February 06, 2021 @01:18PM (#26048542)
It's incredible to me that you can look at the Covid response and see anything but an astonishing series of failures by public health authorities (vaccine development was a rare bright spot). Anyone with basic scientific literacy and critical thinking ability has consistently been _months_ ahead of public health recommendations. Early prep for the pandemic, the FDA's breathtaking negligence in historical ongoing limitation of tests[4], mask recommendations, indoor vs outdoor spread risk, fomite vs air spread risk, the priority and manner of the vaccine rollout, outdoor-protest risk, relative herd immunity in hard-hit places like NY.... it's very difficult to think of a shift in the science that the medical policy and communications establishment wasn't stubbornly holding on to weeks and months later than everyone scientifically-literate was fairly confident.

This isn't an argument for rushing consensus before the evidence is strong enough, but the reasoning behind the initial mistakes was consistently laughably stupid, relying on vague platitudes instead of intellectual rigor[1]. Medical culture is plagued with innumeracy, illusory hard binaries, poor critical thinking, and knee-jerk hyper-conservatism. While the first three are an unforgivable gap that the medical establishment needs to engage in some hard self-examination over, the latter is possibly a reasonable baseline culture for normal circumstances[2]. However, it's horribly maladaptive in a situation like a pandemic, where time is a critical factor and the baseline cost of inaction is thousands of lives a day, trillions of dollars, as well as the PV of the future cost of exponential spread.

As always, I'll clarify that this is not a criticism of _doctors_ as individuals. All of the doctors I know are at least moderately intelligent and well-intentioned, but professional culture is a powerful force and medical school is a heavy-duty indoctrination device that I've seen make too many people _worse_ at thinking. I'm fairly close socially to a lot of doctors of various ages, and I've only seen the most intelligent[3] ones I know manage to shake off this brainwashing enough to recover their critical thinking abilities.

Throw in the challenges of political engagement with expert fields....suffice it to say that Alex Tabarrok's fucking Twitter account was a better source of public health understanding than the WHO/CDC/FDA/policymakers combined.(I started that sentence as a joke, but I'm actually pretty sure that those ignoring the latter in favor of the former would have had a healthier, happier, safer pandemic experience).

[1] For example, Bob Wachter, the chairman of the Dept of Medicine at UCSF, came around to the idea of loosening the second-dose-reserved-at-all-costs orthodoxy after a little while, citing the basic math that the numerate among us had been screaming about since the beginning of the vaccine drive. His reason for his initial disagreement? "An unnecessary curveball". Doctors' misuse of and amateurish engagement with science would be amusing if it wasn't killing so many people.

[2] though the lever is probably jammed too hard in one direction due to liability concerns and inaction bias

[3] To the extent that pedigrees are useful for calibrating where this bar is: my double-Ivy-League-educated physician sister is miles below this intelligence bar

[4] As far as I'm concerned, the FDA has more blood on their hands than anyone at this point. Anybody who paid any attention to them before March 2020 should be completely unsurprised

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by surfsvammel on Sunday February 07, 2021 @04:39PM (#26058448)
I did not mention public health authorities. I think that the science community has done an astonishing job. Almost all funding and research in medicine have been redirected to COVID and we have a handful of vaccines that have been developed and tested in about 18 months. If that isn’t to “science the shit” out of it, I don’t know what would be.

But, as you elude to, none of that matters if public officials and decision makers don’t care for science.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by neuronic on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:04PM (#26039957)
I mean, full agreement here but the... that science should be done and not financially starved because the outcome serves no long-term financial interests.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by monoideism on Friday February 05, 2021 @07:50PM (#26043071)
If you're referring to fecal transplants, you're wrong. There is significant controlled clinical data that it's effective. Many more trials are underway. And there are masses of anecdotal case reports of truly miraculous recoveries.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by cpncrunch on Saturday February 06, 2021 @12:15AM (#26044315)
But this particular study isn't one of them. It is completely uncontrolled. That's the problem with HN. People just can't tell the difference between good science and non-science, and they keep upvoting these junk articles.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by m463 on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:28PM (#26040216)
I'm from the internet and I might not actually have a science degree, but I do have a Ph.D. in the thousands of beneficial uses of hemp.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by ngngngng on Friday February 05, 2021 @01:24PM (#26039518)
Isn't all science "pseudo-science type reasoning" before someone goes out and proves/disproves it? I don't see a problem with some curious conversation.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by surfsvammel on Friday February 05, 2021 @05:03PM (#26041799)
No. There is difference. Science works by making observations, making hypothesis and then testing those. The result is some kind of knowledge which is useful for making predictions.

Reasoning in this world is based on that. We only make predictions when something is tested, established or pure fact.

What I mean by pseudo-science type reasoning is; not based on any fact, nor any position which has been tested (scientifically), nor any established knowledge. Instead it is often based on anecdotes or the reason is motivated or heavily biased.

Frankly, I don’t care too much about bad reasoning. But when there is risk that it might be understood as recommendations, and it might be unsafe for someone reading it, then I think it’s dangerous.

Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by tkzed49 on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:19PM (#26040114)
there's nothing wrong with sharing anecdotes, but it's not science until someone actually does the "proving/disproving" in a convincing way.
Re:Fecal transplant turns cancer immunotherapy non-responder... by surfsvammel on Friday February 05, 2021 @05:06PM (#26041821)
Well, it might be wrong to share anecdotes, IMO. We should always be careful when communicating online as we don’t know who we might be communicating with. Someone might take those anecdotes as proof that something works, and might go out and do something that might not be safe.