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Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by hellcow on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:54PM (#26032526)
Do you live in an area with high homeless rates? As in, "there's a homeless camp of tents consuming multiple city blocks"-level of homelessness?

It's horrible for everyone in the city--most of all for the homeless.

These people suffer from mental health or drug issues and need help. The status quo of "leave them to fend for themselves" is simply an unacceptable outcome.

The system launched by the DPD may not be perfect, but it's a whole lot better than what existed before. It's a huge step in the right direction.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by zapzupnz on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:59PM (#26032552)
People need to remember that perfection is the enemy. Better to step forward in the right direction now than be paralysed by the fear it will never come to pass — obviously, the latter is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by techsupporter on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:07PM (#26032597)
> People need to remember that perfection is the enemy.

Yeah I'm getting real sick of the stance that if something only fixes 80% of a problem and doesn't perfectly resolve every issue every person might ever encounter, it is a failure and should never be implemented.

If it is not causing more harm, and especially if there is a way to address unforeseen harm that might arise, awesome! Let's give it a go.

Because sending armed officers out to deal with any little thing that happens is demonstrably not working well right now.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by tracerbulletx on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:21PM (#26032690)
Yeah, there seems to be a real sense that we are scared to try anything or do anything anymore and an army of people ready to bite off the head of anyone who does.
Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by random5634 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:41PM (#26032826)
A lot of interventions have "disparate impact" - we had that locally - so a big outcry. So yeah, "trying things" can be somewhat high risk. I think some police departments are trying to be proactive by reducing overall contacts (ie, don't pull folks over for things like missing plates / bad registrations etc, delay or avoid responding to certain other erratic behavior type calls).
Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by eeZah7Ux on Friday February 05, 2021 @05:53AM (#26034985)
It has a name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy and it seems to be surprisingly common among developers.
Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by specialist on Friday February 05, 2021 @08:28AM (#26036056)
TIL. Thanks.

I really want this phenomenon explained.

Slippery slope fallacies, concern trolling, whataboutism, pearl clutching, feinting spells, Copenhagen Effect (blame anyone who tries to help for the original problem), Alistair Cockburn's wisdom about organizational change (tldr: people really, really hate change, of any kind, for any reason).

Ad nauseatingum.

It's exhausting.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by eeZah7Ux on Friday February 05, 2021 @10:21AM (#26037248)
Can you share any link regarding Copenhagen Effect? Thanks
Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by specialist on Friday February 05, 2021 @02:39PM (#26040327)
Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by throwaway9980 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:25PM (#26032731)
I’m starting to feel like this perfect or nothing attitude is a massive amplifier of the problems we’re facing.

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

We’re way out of balance. Lot’s of courage, less wisdom, no serenity.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by ogre_codes on Friday February 05, 2021 @12:08AM (#26033345)
There is a lot of evidence that housing the homeless is not only more humane, it's also smart economics. By the time you sum up all the costs of homelessness, it's a pretty nasty toll.

The biggest actual expense is the massive medical bills from exposure and neglect. Police and ambulance services are likely a close second, chasing around town and dealing with random mentally ill people in dire straits.

The other costs are less obvious. As homeless clutter your public spaces, your city starts to rot. Parks become open areas of blight as the homeless overwhelm them and destroy the services they offer. This means much of the money your city invests in parks and public spaces ends up going to waste. Unless you spend more money on police.

The final big expense is clean up and sanitation... unless your city doesn't clean up after homeless people in which case you just end up with actual shit in alleys on big piles of garbage on street corners.

Putting up housing isn't a perfect solution, but it certainly eliminates some significant parts of that.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by specialist on Friday February 05, 2021 @08:33AM (#26036091)
Universal housing like SLC is doing is cheaper, more humane, and lightyears more effective.

Policy wise, proactive beats reactive, prevention beats treatment.

--

PS- I just cleaned up after an encampment. After the city cleaned. 20 used needles (mostly insulin) and dozens of other sharps, human waste, soiled diapers, everything else you can imagine. I'm just so pissed off. No one should have to live like that. Just put people in homes. Safe, clean, access to services. Even triage with microhouses along with honeybuckets and potable water would be better.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by ogre_codes on Friday February 05, 2021 @11:41AM (#26038190)
> Universal housing like SLC is doing is cheaper, more humane, and lightyears more effective.

I read about that program and it sounds amazing.

Decent public housing is pretty common in Europe as well.

I forgot to mention one major cost savings for a city. It is much easier for someone housed to get a job and recover financially than a homeless person.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by lettergram on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:13PM (#26032640)
> It's horrible for everyone in the city--most of all for the homeless.

Have you worked with the homeless? Yes there is a lot of mental illness, but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by nobody9999 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:55PM (#26032921)
>Have you worked with the homeless? Yes there is a lot of mental illness, but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way.

Having been homeless myself many years ago, I can tell you from experience that not having money to pay rent or anyone to take you in is the reason people "choose" to be homeless.

And once you are homeless, it's very difficult to work yourself out of it, for many reasons.

I assume you haven't considered that it's very hard to keep (or even get) a job if you have no place to bathe or store your stuff while you're working.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by lettergram on Thursday February 04, 2021 @11:17PM (#26033049)
I've worked in shelters and offered people food and a place to get cleaned up and they decline.

I grant you many are not like this and perhaps you're more knowledgable with your first hand experience. I know I personally, also from trying to offer people shelters or even free room-and-board, they don't take it. I don't know why in all cases, but many wanted to do things "their own way". I find it commendable and I respect those who choose to refuse handouts.

That's my point, they may not choose to be in that situation. However, forcefully detaining them for "mental illness" for not wanting "assistance" is a different discussion.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by Broken_Hippo on Friday February 05, 2021 @08:09AM (#26035878)
Some shelters are pretty horrible. Sometimes, folks just don't want the shelter's help.

Horrible, as in: you can't stay here if you are a male with children. A female with children will have a curfew and need special permission if they happen to have part-time work that keeps them out after curfew. The children's father can't visit because it is technically for abused women. You can't make sure your medications are safe and you might not keep your belongings. You might be forced to go to AA meetings, church services, or to work in the thrift store. You might be turned away if you are trans or gay - I'm not sure that is supposed to happen legally, but it does nonetheless.

We should house folks, period. In actual housing. Shelters should always be a very, very temporary solution.

If you still get folks that insist on living on the street even though they have basically free housing, then surely, we can do better and create spaces for folks to live. You know, with showers and toilets available for use.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by nobody9999 on Friday February 05, 2021 @12:43AM (#26033506)
>That's my point, they may not choose to be in that situation. However, forcefully detaining them for "mental illness" for not wanting "assistance" is a different discussion.

Who suggested that anyone was doing that?

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by door100 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:32PM (#26032774)
That's a rather bold assertion -- can you cite any statistics or surveys?

In some limited sense, they may "choose" homelessness over poor shelter conditions or unaffordable housing, but that can hardly be considered a choice.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by imtringued on Friday February 05, 2021 @09:44AM (#26036774)
>but there is a large number of people who choose to live this way.

Well, if they aren't mentally ill and thus able to act rationally and it's a mass phenomenon then doesn't that point towards an underlying cause that makes it rational for a large number of people to choose homelessness?

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by imperio59 on Thursday February 04, 2021 @09:58PM (#26032543)
In my observation a lot of the homeless in the camps with mental health issues are on medication or have been through mental health facilities several times and it just made things worse for them

Source: working on the streets of Seattle a couple years ago every weekend.

Re:Zero arrests in 6 months of health care professionals rep... by mjevans on Thursday February 04, 2021 @10:45PM (#26032858)
My own belief is that there isn't a single simple issue, but rather a web of many simple things that have complex interactions.

Nearly all of those are political issues though. Technology can help with better communications and tools for debunking falsehoods in those communications.

It might also eventually help with strong AI that's smarter and better than humans at offering a set of solutions and then letting people debate the ones that we agree are also emotionally the correct answers.