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Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by DebtDeflation on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @10:19AM (#26014361)
>the original data is in such sorry state

How does Blockchain solve that problem?

It's the same issue with using it for supply chain verification, it's dependent upon the point of initial data entry. The Central American farmer enters the tomatoes that he just received via container ship from China into the Blockchain application as "organically grown domestic produce" and from that point forward consumers can rest assured about the tomatoes' authenticity and provenance. Or not.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by simias on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @10:39AM (#26014579)
Right, authority-less blockchain is only intrinsically trustworthy for purely digital goods. If you want to track software licenses it might work (although 99% of the time a centralized solution will be simpler and vastly more efficient).

And this immutability can arguably be a detriment. Laws and rules are messy and can be exploited, not having any recourse if you get scammed is not necessarily a huge pro.

The whole idea that you could import all the rules, laws and regulations of the real world into a computer program without any bug or unforeseen issue is probably one of the most ridiculous aspect of that whole blockchain industry. Especially since we already have a fairly consequential list of "smart contracts" that have been exploited in the wild despite being fairly basic compared to IRL regulations.

"Oh you lost your house because somebody found a weird edge case between two smart contracts that let them buy it for $1? Ah man, that sucks, but then THE CODE IS LAW so... Tough luck. Maybe try buying DOGE coins? I hear it's gonna moon soon. They used rocket emojis, so you know it's serious."

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by mason55 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @02:32PM (#26018054)
> Laws and rules are messy and can be exploited, not having any recourse if you get scammed is not necessarily a huge pro.

Yes, many times things like T+2 settlements on trades or taking three days for a transfer to fully clear are a feature, not a bug.

You start with Bitcoin being like cash, where once it's gone it's gone, unless a court can find the person and get it back. Then you don't want grandma to get scammed, so you build bank-like entities on top of the blockchain who re-create the three day window for transfers. In theory you could have different entities that have different settlement times as a tradeoff, but the modern system could do that now. The reason they don't is you need both parties to have the same rules or else your bank will get bogged down trying to figure out the rules of every other bank. Maybe you add an instant, non-revocable transfer like a SWIFT equivalent to go along with your 3-day ACH equivalent and, congrats, you've recreated the modern banking system.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by spiderxxxx on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @02:40PM (#26018152)
Immutability of past transactions is just an artifact of an append-only database. Blockchain gives you nothing that an append-only database couldn't provide for that guarantee. Combine that with some server sharding, and there's not really a point to having blockchain do anything at all. The wholly designed inefficiency of "mining coins" is not necessary to having a distributed ledger.
Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by crmd on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:00PM (#26027229)
You should have heard IBM's blockchain executive (I forget his name) giving his pitch at an investor conference in Palo Alto back in 2017. Standing ovation after an amazing presentation about disrupting banking, healthcare, and global logistics. I swear this industry runs on bullshit.
Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by HelloNurse on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @01:08PM (#26016891)
In other situations, the initial data entry depends on a trusted authority rather than a trusted other party. For example, real estate ownership deeds depend on qualified legals who write them correctly: you need to trust them to do their job, without mistakes, collusions, etc. at which point there's little practical difference between buyers and sellers trusting them to keep a public, official record with paper and electronic documents in their archives and trusting them to enter your transfer into a public blockchain system.
Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by totalZero on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @10:42AM (#26014618)
I don't think it would work for physically settled commodity futures because contract specifications require a particular quality of product, and that's part of the motivation to trade via an exchange.

But it would work for securities that have no distinguishable attributes from one another, especially if the extant problem with trading those securities is market access.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by SkyPuncher on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @11:59AM (#26015736)
It doesn't work. But, I clearly remember this being something IBM advertised extensively.
Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by Xelbair on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @01:38PM (#26017330)
It actually solves it quite well.

It enforces you to input it properly, and not do half assed job due to immutability, because whatever you input in there will stay there, attached with credentials/metadata of whoever entered it.

Currently the main problem is that docs are in sorry state, it was a rush job - and that state is very profitable for some people making dubious claims to old property.

It would be easy to notice fraud, and all real estate deals need to go through proper notary anyways - would they risk their license if their failures would be visible - for ever?

Mind you I'm not trying to propose a global solution, I'm proposing blockchain use for government entities and entities that work closely with them.

It is just that governments aren't centralized on modern world, and you can leverage decentralized nature of blockchain to have a common dataset and standard available to all of those entities.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by stonogo on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @01:48PM (#26017465)
It doesn't enforce anything. People can just transcribe wrong things into blockchains, then have to append patches to the information. Unless you can prove malfeasance nobody is going to lose a license over a mistake. I think you're vastly overestimating how much anyone would care just because blockchains are involved. Notary records are already "forever," no computers required, and there's nothing inherent to blockchains that causes people to type more carefully.

Plus there are lots of situations in real estate law (like ground rent where the freeholder is not identifiable) which don't fit into cute little data structures. This isn't a problem with documentation being a rush job, it's a problem with some of the records of ownership being hundreds of years old. Seeing as how I would have to hire a special archivist just to access data on an 8" floppy disk, I'm not confident that the blockchain is a long-term (i.e. centuries) solution to any of these problems.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by majormajor on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @03:10PM (#26018490)
> It enforces you to input it properly, and not do half assed job due to immutability, because whatever you input in there will stay there, attached with credentials/metadata of whoever entered it.

This is an unrealistic level of infallibility to ask of people. Like taking the backspace key off a keyboard to enforce people not making typos.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by perl4ever on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @05:59PM (#26020359)
>all real estate deals need to go through proper notary anyways

I don't know if you are American or familiar with how real estate works here. It is decentralized in a way that most countries are not, and there is insurance that people buy against mistakes and problems with transferring property. In a way, you could argue that a single blockchain to track real property would be more centralized than the current system.

"the vast majority of U.S. states have opted for a system of document recording in which no governmental official makes any determination of who owns the title or whether the instruments transferring it are valid"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_insurance

"A recording system combined with title insurance decentralizes records, creating redundancy. For example, when many records were destroyed in San Francisco's 1906 earthquake, out-of-town title companies maintained records that allowed landowners to prove ownership of their property."

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by Xelbair on Thursday February 04, 2021 @04:12AM (#26023939)
As i said - over here, not in USA. we use completely different system.

There is a central record for each separate local government(located at the regional judicial office), with copies being sent to up the chain.

But the thing is - over here whatever is in that local deed book is the current legal state of the property.

Licensed notary is obliged by law to check the current legal state of the property, verify identity of the ones making the change, and do the change itself - but due to sorry state of the books first part isn't always reliable.

I am also not proposing a solution for USA problems, but for my country.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by valarauko on Thursday February 04, 2021 @06:45PM (#26031166)
I'm not sure which country you're describing, but Andhra Pradesh in India had signed an MoU with the Etherium Foundation for property records. I still don't see the Blockchain could have resolved the mess that is property records in India. How would it have worked? Would each property owner hold the private keys verifying their ownership, and possession of the keys proves ownership? My friend in Andhra Pradesh discovered that a portion of the family's land had been sold by a relative, and each party had "legal" paperwork to show for it. All you need to do is pay off the right guy in the local office to smooth things along. I can see the value of a distributed ledger for something like this, but it's an all or nothing proposition.
Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by perl4ever on Friday February 05, 2021 @12:35PM (#26038852)
Yes, but also the US system is not necessarily a problem if you like decentralization.

People say a blockchain is decentralized, but maybe it's more accurate to say it's a centralized system without anyone being in control. Which might in fact not be preferred to an actual decentralized system.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by tomrod on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @07:16PM (#26021017)
And doesn't allow for changes to the data model, right?
Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by Xelbair on Thursday February 04, 2021 @04:18AM (#26023957)
Quite frankly yes.

Because in most cases, speaking from experience, after model change they will be using a new model without doing proper conversion of old data. This happened to cadastral data over here - new schema required some fields explicitly, while old data did not have them digitized, and country-wide system was made with such assumptions. It does not work to this day properly.

Archive the old chain, deploy the new one with migrated latest state from the old chain transformed to new model. keep working.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by tomrod on Thursday February 04, 2021 @12:36PM (#26027670)
And deployment requires a central authority to define.

Inherently, this cuts most use cases off at the knees. Some small country your route your shipment through changes requirements? Broken.

Re:IBM has cut its blockchain team down to almost nothing – ... by Xelbair on Friday February 05, 2021 @09:15AM (#26036513)
This wasn't about shipments, but about either transaction log, or property deed ownership system controlled by government.