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Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by umvi on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:15PM (#26005240)
> Software whose functioning mistreats the user is called malware

Hmm, well based on that super broad definition, sure, proprietary software is "often malware". But usually "malware" is understood to mean software that exploits vulnerabilities in a computer system, not merely software with DRM, paywalls, banners, ads, etc.

I think GNU might need to pick a different term here than "malware" unless they are intentionally fear mongering to get the free software conversation going.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by rmah on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:54PM (#26005718)
This is going to sound like a rant, but I really don't mean it that way. I'm not trying to make a value judgement.

GNU picked the term "malware" on purpose. I think the purpose was to (slightly) confuse, connect a known bad thing with commercial software, and spur further dissuasion. I doubt they intended to fearmonger though. That said, your intuition that they picked it to "get the free software conversation going" is, IMO, spot on.

They did the same thing with "free" in "free software". When people misinterpreted what they meant, they used that as an opportunity to ... explain their point of view. Many here may not remember when conversations like "it's free software" ... "no, not just free in cost, but free as in freedom" ... "yes, I know it's cost free, but you can charge money if you want" ... "yes, I know no one charges anything, but it's really about freedom!" was a common conversation in tech circles. I suspect a similar goal for "malware" now.

If clarity was a primary goal, they would have, IMO, picked different words.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by jnwatson on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:39PM (#26005548)
I used to work for a company that used to classify software as malware. The original definition is much closer to what is broadly accepted (at least by antivirus vendors). Much of what is classified as malware doesn't exploit anything other than the user's expectations.

The definition of malware is social construct, not a technical one, otherwise Powershell.exe would light up like a Christmas tree.

The only reasonable way to talk about malware is with respect to users' wishes and desires.

I'll note that AV vendors invented a "less bad" label, PUP, for less-destructive malware. That doesn't make it not malware though.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by umvi on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:48PM (#26005649)
Ok, fair point, then maybe we ought to be quibbling over the semantics of "mistreat" then. IMO making software not work if the user doesn't pay isn't mistreating the user. GNU disagrees and thinks anything short of 100% optional/unenforced payment is mistreating the user.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by ethanwillis on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:52PM (#26005694)
This is not true. If you are never provided with the software then GNU wouldn't say you can access the source code.

So if someone says "I won't give you X software unless you pay Y dollars" that is fine

However if they do pay the expectation is they also get access to the source code if they're running the software on their own machine (depending on which license we're talking about of course)

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by DougN7 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @12:18AM (#26010831)
Of all the possible things that might be expected, why is a copy of the source code the thing that stands out. If it’s on my machine why shouldn’t I expect excellent documentation, or configuration support, or build help, or features as I request them? What makes the source code and only the source code the exact thing I should expect?
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by umvi on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @03:26PM (#26006151)
> So if someone says "I won't give you X software unless you pay Y dollars" that is fine

How can you say that though if someone can just get a copy from a peer without paying you? People just go around the paywall and grab a free copy without payment which is why DRM exists at all. So then I make it so the software has to connect to a server to check if you've paid for it, and now suddenly that's mistreating the user?

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by ethanwillis on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:32PM (#26010633)
Having software connect to a server to check if you've paid for it is still allowed. You just have to provide source code. However, you don't have to provide the source code for the software running on the remote server.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by ethanwillis on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @11:34PM (#26010644)
In either case this is all a moot point because you don't have to go full GNU to provide source code to paying customers. This still happens in some enterprise situations with contracts in place to assign legal liability for sharing the code for free to other people while still respecting the freedom of the software users to have access to the source code.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by FriedrichN on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:55PM (#26005746)
You can call it telemetry, you can also call it spyware.

You can call it DRM, you can also call it user restriction.

You can call it serving ads, you can also call it remote code injection.

You can call it subscription based, you can also call it user lock-in or remote killswitch.

There is not a lot of modern proprietary software that wouldn't fall into these categories. I know a lot of people claim not to care about it, that is a separate issue, but the fact is that most proprietary software is in fact malware, even if people don't mind installing malware.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by throwaway314158 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:05PM (#26007536)
A dandelion can either be a weed or part of a salad. It's a matter of context.

> You can call it subscription based, you can also call it user lock-in or remote killswitch.

If you stop paying for your gym membership and your access card gets automatically revoked, do you consider that to be some kind of physical instantiation of malware?

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by reificator on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @05:31PM (#26007888)
If the muscles I built at that gym were incompatible with any other gym, yeah I probably would.

Metaphors don't work as well as people think.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by Osiris on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:24PM (#26005356)
> unless they are intentionally fear mongering to get the free software conversation going.

I think it's this.

However, they aren't wrong, per se. Users should have control over their systems and their privacy. But hyperbole and fear mongering are not very effective at affecting change in the system.

I would argue that they have a noble mission but take it to such an extreme as to not be very practical.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by crazypython on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:27PM (#26005400)
Wikipedia[0] says

> Programs are also considered malware if they secretly act against the interests of the computer user

It's fair to say proprietary software often creates an ability and incentive to act against the interests the user which results in it becoming malware.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malware

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by easton on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:21PM (#26005320)
Based on that definition, GNU Emacs is malware as whenever I see it on my system (it used to be included with several Linux distros and macOS), I cringe at the thought of all of disk space I could be filling with fortune files.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by crazypython on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:26PM (#26005388)
I would modify the definition to this:

> Software whose functioning intentionally mistreats the user is called malware

There is nothing stopping you from removing GNU Emacs. There are features missing in Roam Research. But in Emacs org-roam, if you are missing a feature, you can ask any programmer– they don't have to be an org-roam maintainer– to add a feature as it is free software. Roam intentionally takes away the freedom to modify the software.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by hundchenkatze on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:27PM (#26005401)
I get your point, but I think in this case the distro would be the malware not emacs.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by dpeck on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:25PM (#26005375)
I don’t know about that.

The way I remember it “malware” as a term was invented to be a bigger umbrella term to account for things like bonzi buddy when “virus” wasn’t quite as good of a description.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by littlestymaar on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @03:10PM (#26005939)
Being a malware has noting to do with exploiting security vulns. When you installed a cracked video game found on a warrez website back in the 2000s, that came bundled with pop-up ads spawning on your computer, it was called a malware.

Today, Windows itself comes bundled not just with ads, but with a keylogger and monitor all you do on your computer.

Mainstream software have turned themselves into malware in a desperate attempt for monetization in a world where nobody wants to pay for software (in parts because FLOSS alternatives exist, but not only).

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by bitwize on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:29PM (#26005417)
Malware needn't exploit a vulnerability. There is much malware (e.g., Comet Cursor, Bonzi Buddy, etc.) that relies on being installed by the end user and may even present as a fun or useful program... but it's really doing something to your detriment behind the scenes.

If Bonzi Buddy counts as malware, so does the Facebook app.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by butt_hugger on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:44PM (#26005611)
That is... the definition of malware. I notice that lately people have been moving the goalposts so they can justify things like hidden telemetry as not being spyware.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by umvi on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @03:30PM (#26006205)
Not moving goalposts, just saying we need to be more precise in our categorization of software. Calling all proprietary software "badware" doesn't really convey much information. We should create more meaningful categories that convey what the software is actually doing that is undesirable.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by Xelbair on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @07:31AM (#26013039)
I would say that modern forms of telemetry(some game companies used literal rootkits!) would be considered malware/adware 15 years ago.

Try to find me a modern closed source program, with big userbase without such telemtry.

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by monkin on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:28PM (#26005412)
Yes, they are intentionally fear mongering, just read most of their examples. It’s like reading tabloids.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by atoav on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:41PM (#26005564)
Fear mongering? Now you go to the other extreme.

What is malware? Is that browser toolbar your aunt has on ther internet explorer Malware? Probably yes.

Is a "Cleaner" Program that does effectively nothing except Phone home Malware? Probably Yes.

Is a software that does similar things behind your back without your knowledge, but that has some useful parts to it Malware? Maybe Yes?

Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by DougN7 on Wednesday February 03, 2021 @12:24AM (#26010869)
But is ALL proprietary software malware merely because I don’t get the source? I could get the Linux source but it wouldn’t do me any good because I don’t know how to compile it. The whole thing is a silly argument. I pay for some software precisely because it does what I want!
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by atoav on Thursday February 04, 2021 @01:20AM (#26023134)
Probably not, but unless you fire up wireshark or reverse engineer precisely which bits on your disk a software touches, you cannot always tell which one does and which doesn't.
Re:Proprietary Software Is Often Malware by bsanr2 on Tuesday February 02, 2021 @02:55PM (#26005735)
Would the abuse of system privileges and capabilities count as "exploiting vulnerabilities in a computer system?" In fact, one might expand this in order to include software that that exploits vulnerabilities in psychology. In this way, you have a term that encompasses all the ways software can be "bad" for end users.