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Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by kleiba on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:44AM (#25968987)
Well, let's skip the twenties part. That's a relic of the hyper-competitive academic system. Normality is you start college at 17/18, finish college around age 21/22, and finish a Ph.D around 26. At that point, you take an academic job if you want one and appear qualified. You spend 7 years having fun as an assistant prof, doing what you love, and then, unless you've messed up, you have tenure.

And now the German version of this tale:

You finish high school with 18/19 get your master's degree with 23/24. Then you get a PhD position but because it's tied to a three-year project with third-party funding, you're also expected to do project work that does not contribute to your thesis at all. You're only starting out in the business, though, so you're happy to help!

Then, three years later, the project is finished but your thesis is nowhere near that. Now, choose your own adventure:

1) Luckily, your supervisor can hire you using his own budget. That's nice, almost no strings attached. Now you can really focus on finishing up your thesis.

2) Luckily, there's another project that has just started and that you can work on now. You're a bit unsure, though: when the first project was up, no-one thanked you for your work, your supervisor was just surprised about the state of your thesis. Should you do that again? What's more, the new project has nothing to do with the old project, let alone with the topic of your thesis. Because you really have no other option, you agree to do it - still better than nothing.

Which brings us to the next option:

3) Your supervisor unfortunately has no funds to extend your contract. But since you've already invested so much work and you like the idea of a PhD, you apply for unemployment support through the government and hope that you can finish everything within a year. Later, you're gonna call this period an "independently funded research scholarship" on you CV.

But all good things come to an end: finally, after much hardship, you graduate! Wow!

And you even find a post-doc position in some other town! Great. You don't mind a change of scenery! Now you're rolling!

And you're good at your job. You feel good. Get lots of papers accepted.

But your contract ends after two years. Luckily, there is another post-doc position in some other town! Great! You're not so keen on moving again but hey, your new partner doesn't mind a change of scenery.

And you're still pretty good at your job. You kind of start feeling a bit disillusioned with your field though: it seems like all the research published these days is just application-driven -- not what once pulled you to the field. Oh, well, at least your job pays the rent.

But your contract ends after two years. You consider applying for professor positions because in Germany, there is no middle ground really. But you have your doubts: are you really good enough? Besides, both you and your partner hate the idea of moving yet again: you just made new friends. But what can you do?

None of your applications for a professor position go anywhere. So you go for a third post-doc. The move was really not that bad, as you were able to sell most of the old furniture. The new supervisor is great and you feel energized with a rediscovered love for the field.

You don't get as many papers out as before even though you try. But somehow, you don't have as much time for actual research anymore, as you find yourself more and more tied up in administratrivia. You work long hours but only half of it is actually dedicated to research, and it shows in your output. Nevertheless, you like the working environment.

But then your contract ends after two years. Your supervisor would love to keep you, he even has enough money in his budget for at least five years. But oh! Damn. There is a law in Germany that six years after your PhD, you cannot be hired on university budget anymore, unless it's a permanent position. And, well, sorry, the bad news is: universities don't hire on permanent contracts. Faculty, that is, they don't hire faculty - except professors. Administration, sure, they're permanent. Facility management, sure, they're permanent. Just the people doing the core task of a university (teaching and researching), sorry, no.

You give a professor position one last try because there just happens to be an opening that sounds like it was just made for you. You fit it perfectly. And so do 9 others. But there's only one position. You're all pretty much equally qualified, so who's going to get it? Will it be you?

It doesn't matter because it's clear that nine folks will not get it.

Nine people who's dream it has always been to be in research, who have invested a lot in making this dream a reality, who are completely qualified and very experienced will now have to go and do something else... while a new generation of young, blue-eyed, PhD students are ready for the same journey.

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by woofie11 on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:16PM (#25970825)
The really sad part of this journey is that most of those people, beyond youthful idealism, had no idea whether that dream was for them.

Because there is very little mobility into academia, MANY people land on the wrong side of the pond. You can't try industry and go back. One more difference is that colleges once wanted people with decades industry experience, and many older people saw going back to teach young'uns as a way of giving back.

It's not just older people. If you're in industry, and want to pursue a good idea for 5 years where you don't have elbowroom, or in academia and want to try to commercialize something, you break your academic track. It's possible with tenure, but I find many tenured academics distinctly underimpressive by the point they've gone through decades of abuse to get there....

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by anticristi on Saturday January 30, 2021 @06:06PM (#25973946)
It's actually worse. The current generation of professors is completely out-of-touch with industry, due to them living during a huge academic shortage. Now you hear them say:

- "I never wrote a patent and I turned out great. Why should we bother giving an innovation course to our PhD students?" - "This person had a 10-year break in their academic career. I can't evaluate them."

So it's not only that there is a lack of mobility between industry and academia, rather this gap is actively fueled.

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday January 30, 2021 @08:53AM (#25969057)
Thank you for the perspective from Germany. I wonder, should we read the above with "I" in place of "you"? Is this your personal experience? If so, what is the final outcome? Or is that nont known yet?
Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by kleiba on Saturday January 30, 2021 @09:28AM (#25969321)
If you mean, is the above an excerpt from my autobiography, then no. :-)
Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by medium_burrito on Saturday January 30, 2021 @11:36AM (#25970443)
Perhaps we can establish a nonprofit research institution where people can do research. There are whole towns for sale in various places, we could get one for free probably. Get an endowment together, a few million, that could pay for a bit of food and refurbishment. Brew beer or some sort of herbal liqueur, might cover some expenses.
Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by haihaibye on Saturday January 30, 2021 @07:15PM (#25974409)
Most grants require you belong to a university.

Removing this requirement would allow competition (even from independent researchers in coffee shops).

Good luck trying to change this!

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by medium_burrito on Sunday January 31, 2021 @10:22AM (#25979439)
For location, you can find villages or monasteries in Europe, especially depopulating areas in Italy for brutally cheap (under $100k). If you have a bit more money, say $5-700k, you can buy an old factory or convent in France. Various tax advantages can be had with enough cleverness.

An endowment you can rustle up with sufficiently well connected people, especially if you aren't looking for that much money.

Grants I agree are a problem. Darpa as I recall doesn't necessarily require university connections, but I'm not sure if Europe has anything easy like that. Maybe you attach a startup incubator?

1)https://www.patrice-besse.co.uk/ads/historic-buildings-for-s... 2) https://www.patrice-besse.co.uk/ads/historic-buildings-relig...

EDIT: In terms of financing, how much money do you really need? If you are self sufficient in terms of owning the property, endowment income and growing vegetables and selling beer/yoghurt etc., is that not enough? Would the modern academic type be interested at all in essentially living in a commune/monastery where some amount of time is dedicated to cleaning/maintenance/carpentry/agriculture?

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by woofie11 on Monday February 01, 2021 @08:27AM (#25988465)
This is false. Not-for-profits which aren't universities apply for grants all the time. Different grants come with different restrictions, but the proposed scheme would certainly be above the bar for e.g. typical NSF science grants.

Universities are hard due to accreditation, but starting a not-for-profit is quick and easy.

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by haihaibye on Wednesday February 10, 2021 @05:10AM (#26087405)
It varies per grant. I work in medical research and this is the case where I live.

In the USA the NIH is 3-4x the budget of the NSF

Re:University of Leicester firing all pure math faculty by micheles on Saturday January 30, 2021 @12:56PM (#25971231)
It is more or less the same in Italy and in most European countries, it is not only Germany.