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Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:08AM (#25942874)
Yes. They should be forced to provide the service they promised. It’s not my fault their business model is failing for a particular ticker on a particular day.

If they can’t, then some advance notice is needed. Making this decision instantly without giving customers time to move their holdings elsewhere is not okay.

That being said, I’m surprised people are still using them for day trading. They don’t have a great track record.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by dcolkitt on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:19AM (#25943073)
> They should be forced to provide the service they promised

Read the TOS. This was never promised.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:21AM (#25943124)
Yeah, TOS's are famous for being one-sided and permitting all sorts of bad behavior. And for not matching the marketing promises of the product they're attached to.

They may be legally entitled to do what they've done. That doesn't make it right.

My comment is an "ought" comment, more than an "is" comment. Regulation should moot TOS's that allow this kind of rug-pulling.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by salmon-salmon on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:39AM (#25943503)
This is exactly why people don't like Wall Street. It's smart to pay attention to the TOS pragmatically to protect yourself, but the TOS has absolutely no ethical relevance. To people with a well-adjusted ethical compass, a trading platform blocking trades is a violation of their social contract.

You should be aware that if you're citing the TOS in any context other than a court case, most people are going to like you less as a result.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by monadic3 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:45AM (#25943630)
You can't expect a reasonable person to read the TOS. They have a reasonable expectation to get the same service as any other day, even if this conflicts with Robinhood's business model, unless Robinhood made their expected behavior abundantly clear in advance.
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by obmelvin on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:20AM (#25943105)
>It’s not my fault their business model is failing for a particular ticker on a particular day.

As I see it, regardless of how it should be, one needs to accept that trading with RH has limitations/trade-offs compared to a "proper" brokerage. I get your statement, but like you said, their track record already speaks for itself.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by risyachka on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:25AM (#25943211)
It's not just RH. I am paying for Interactive Brokers, they also stopped buy transactions.
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:34AM (#25943412)
Oh wow. I've always thought IB to be the most "bare metal" trading platform available to regular people. If they're denying buy orders, then where does a plebe go to get direct access to the market?
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by dragonwriter on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:41AM (#25943545)
> where does a plebe go to get direct access to the market?

If you have direct access to the market, you go directly to the market (i.e., have a seat on the exchange.) Also, you very much aren't a plebe in that case.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by meetups323 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:38AM (#25943491)
Fidelity is free and has been giving me full reign over my own assets.
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by kgwgk on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:02AM (#25943938)
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by duxup on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:24AM (#25943195)
> It’s not my fault their business model is failing

"You" (well not you but you get what i'm saying) picked the service...

If folks are capable of investing directly in stocks they should be expected to understand the ramifications of picking a free service like Robinhood.

They ESPECIALLY should with all this populist banter going around...

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:36AM (#25943447)
Yeah, I agree picking RH to do this isn't very smart. But I can hold both ideas in my head ("RH, don't do that", "You, don't pick RH")

But apparently Interactive Brokers is now doing the same. Much stronger argument to be made there. They're a pay service, with supposedly big-boy ideas about their clients, right?

EDIT: Also, note that Robinhood's decision isn't just affecting their own clients. They're screwing the wider market by restricting the pool of buyers. People who have no relationship with RH are now seeing their holdings lose value because fewer bids are making it to the books. I'm a TDA client. I didn't agree to Robinhood's TOS.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by thebean11 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:39AM (#25943502)
> a free service like Robinhood

And pretty much every other broker on the planet who made trading stocks free?

How is a user, no matter how "capable", supposed to predict this?

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by zwkrt on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:35AM (#25943427)
The majority of all e-brokers have made the same choice. This isn’t about Robinhood being for dummies or selling your data or any of that.
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:22AM (#25943138)
If you put the wrong oil in your car because you got it for free, and your engine failed then whose fault is it? If it's the wrong grade then it's the wrong oil, even if it says it's "high performance*".

I'm a casual investor at best. I have some investments as savings through the bank, and use WealthSimple Trade here in Canada. It charges fees. It hasn't gone down. I still wouldn't trust it for any volatile action as they alert me well in advance that they have a delay of about 15 minutes. I don't expect anything more from that. I also wouldn't buy anything with the intention of time-critical sells there. If I cared more, I'd seek using a higher-performing platform. (Also worth noting, they never pinched any buys or sells during this fiasco. What's the old adage: "you get what you pay for". I don't see how this situation is any different)

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by yanderekko on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:31AM (#25943362)
>If you put the wrong oil in your car because you got it for free, and your engine failed then whose fault is it? If it's the wrong grade then it's the wrong oil, even if it says it's "high performance*".

If someone gave you that oil under fraudulent pretenses then it would absolutely be their fault..

Now to say that Robinhood is engaging in outright fraud, but having your service expectations subverted like this is going to rightfully piss people off whether or not the underlying service is free. There's all sorts of malfeasance that Robinhood could engage in with its free service that would clearly be unethical/illegal.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:32AM (#25943376)
But they didn't. The oil just sat on the shelf, and they picked it out because it was free.
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:51AM (#25943756)
I’m not following your analogy here. If a bottle of “10-40W” oil is offered to me for free, but it really contains olive oil, it’s my fault for trusting the label?

I mean, pragmatically speaking a buyer should be more wary of a situation like this. But motor oil is not the same thing as brokerages. It is very common for trades to be executed with no fee these days. It’s a market norm.

It is not a market norm at AutoZone to have $5 quarts of oil sitting next to free quarts of oil.

Add in any case, ethically speaking, it is still the fault of whoever mislabeled that olive oil.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:11AM (#25944101)
I'm saying the oil is not labelled 10-40W, but is actually 2-cycle motor oil and they put it in their car anyway.

I'm an outsider, but that's how this appears to me. They weren't lied to, they misjudged—and mainly because of a lack of understanding.

Traditionally, acting without understanding but still a high degree of confidence was called hubris.

And it appears the institutional traders expressed hubris when they over-leveraged, and this subset of retail investors expressed hubris when they didn't properly understand the capabilities and limitations of the app they decided to use to engage with the stock market.

I haven't seen people on other platforms complain in the same ways. I mean, for instance I haven't been restricted on my platform. I haven't heard anything about Questrade or E-Trade or anything.

To go back to my contrived motor analogies, it looks like a lot of people also expected a lawnmower to compete with a Tercel, never mind a Ferrari.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:21AM (#25944286)
That's more reasonable. However, the lawnmower or the Tercel are machines that have inherent limitations.

RH's decision here isn't an inherent limitation of their platform. It's an active decision they made. One they did not have to.

Also, what RH has done isn't harming just their own customers, but the entire market. People using Questrade or E-trade are finding that they have fewer buyers for their shares. If RH is going to act like a Tercel on the racetrack, they have no business entering the race in the first place. They're a danger to the other participants.

(BTW, analogies are fun. Thanks for the opportunity to torture them like this :)

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by 52-6F-62 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:37AM (#25944494)
I think you've got a point there, if I'm reading you correctly:

If Robinhood (et al—sorry RH you're the de facto stand-in now) can't meet the standard of keeping up with the ... other cars in the race... then they shouldn't be allowed to enter. In that case, the analogy helps since most races have minimum qualifier rounds before you're allowed to enter.

I've got no arguments there. But that's the kind of thing RH [et al] were founded to confront or change, wasn't it? Or were they just circumventing previous regulation about market interfaces? This is where we get into the weeds and me out of my depth.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by yanderekko on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:52AM (#25943761)
If the oil was mislabeled it's still the store's responsibility.

In the case of Robinhood, I can't just liquidate my money out of Robinhood and move it into a new platform and buy GME today if I wanted. I had a reasonable expectation that I'd be able to do this yesterday, and now that expectation was subverted in a way that's costly/inconvenient to me even if the service is free I have every right to complain.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by arcturus17 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:20AM (#25943098)
Should, as in ethically? Surely not legally.
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @10:31AM (#25943351)
I say legally. A broker-dealer should be required to either give advanced notice of a suspension like this, or have a clearly upfront volatility metric that triggers it. (No, a TOS statement like, "We reserve the right to suspend trading at our discretion" is not a clear rule. It's a weasel clause)

Users would then know, in advance, if a particular ticker will be restricted. Either through specific advanced notice, or because they were told that all securities that exceed a volatility of X over Y time period will be restricted.

Whatever the rule, it can't be a snap decision that leaves users with no recourse.

If you're not an appropriate day-trading app, then don't act like one until you suddenly don't want to be one anymore. Make the rules in advance, communicate them, and let the market decide if you're appropriate for their needs.

Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by arcturus17 on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:43AM (#25944583)
Again, is this based on any real legal foundations, or on what you think the law should be?
Re:WallStreetBets vs WallStreet: It's not about the money an... by function_seven on Thursday January 28, 2021 @11:48AM (#25944662)
What I think the law should be. I'm not qualified to say if there is a legal violation here (whether criminal, regulatory, or civil).

I said in another comment that my thoughts on this are in the "ought" category, not the "is" one.