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Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by helmholtz on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:19AM (#25926412)
The complication is EXACTLY why we need to be even more in panic and hair-on-fire about environmental issues. A colleague did some analyses for the life cycle emissions of refrigerants. The complexity in the process was absurd, and basically intractable without simplifications. How much indirect CO2 emissions are caused by an inefficient compressor? How much does it depend on how you generate electricity? Which country were the gaskets manufactured in? What was the process used to extract the rare earths? Everything depends on everything else and consequences are pretty unknown.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by pjc50 on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:19AM (#25926854)
Indeed - which is the argument for point-of-extraction carbon pricing. Then you don't have to calculate anything, it gets sorted out along the supply chain by individual decisions as to whether the CO2 cost is worth it compared to the available alternatives at that step.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by contravariant on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:38AM (#25927010)
The problem there is that most ways to add carbon pricing are against the self interest of whomever enacts it. Point-of-extraction is especially bad because it places all of the initial burden on the few places that actually extract carbon, who are probably not going to like that idea.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by jononor on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:56AM (#25927132)
On the other hand, those extractors are operating on licenses issued by governments. So in principle, one could add that do their license, and they would just have to deal with it. A challenge is that the market is global, while licenses are given out by nations. So requires alignment of many nations for it not to be a competitive burden on a few producers.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by contravariant on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:04AM (#25927196)
Taxes are already on the government level, I'm not sure what other hand you're referring to here. Who would a corporation even pay the money to if it isn't enacted by a government?
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by conjectures on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:13AM (#25927275)
I guess it depends on the 'who' in those places.

It's not hard to imagine a government rather fancying getting a tax receipt from extraction companies, particularly if it is seen as green. Who would presumably lobby rather hard against it. This suggests the absence of pricing at source is to some extent a result of successful lobbying.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:31AM (#25927411)
The problem is exports; the government is already making money on extraction companies selling their goods abroad. If they burden them with extra taxes, that'll get translated to the price other nations pay, which will reduce exports, and thus reduce government's profit. In a competitive exports market, a country with environmental taxes will lose to the one without.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by conjectures on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:34AM (#25928019)
Sorry, how does a government bring in tax revenue off of exports? Tarrifs are levied on imports rather than exports.

Sure they would make less money off corporation taxes with lower exports, but as those receipts are generally low anyway the tradeoff going to carbon tax would likely be favourable.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:41AM (#25928114)
Not directly off exports, but doing any kind of operation in a country involves government getting a cut of the profits via corporate taxes, laborers' income taxes, etc. All of these get smaller if the corporation sells less.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by adrianN on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:24AM (#25926900)
Until every country in the world has agreed upon doing that you still need to estimate CO2 when exporting and importing things from and to the common-carbon-price zone.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by CuriousSkeptic on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:58AM (#25926690)
Sounds exactly like the kind of problem market economies handles very well.

Main problem is figuring out how to incorporate emissions into price signals.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by Marazan on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:41AM (#25927037)
Pricing negative externialities is EXACTLY the kind of thing market economies are terrible at.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by CuriousSkeptic on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:05AM (#25927706)
Which was kind of my point. How can we internalize the externalities?
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by pietrovismara on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:04AM (#25926733)
> Sounds exactly like the kind of problem

It didn't really work out so far, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about an emergency.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by fastball on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:46AM (#25926590)
Hence why the real solution has always been:

1. Electrify everything possible 2. Shift all electricity production to renewables, massively increase power output with nuclear nuclear nuclear. 3. Carbon capture.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by adrianN on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:58AM (#25926691)
Destroying old growth forests is still a bad idea even if you have enough energy to capture all the carbon.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by AndyMcConachie on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:13AM (#25926807)
Everytime I hear the word 'carbon capture' I just think of trees. This is literally what trees do, they capture carbon.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by usrusr on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:38AM (#25927008)
Yes, but to get a long term net effect we'd have to bury them about as deep as the fossils we are excavating. I dare claim that this won't happen (it would be far cheaper/more efficient to leave those fossils and synthesize something from those trees up here)

Sometimes I wonder, as a mind experiment, how close we could get to practical carbon burial with a process based on sinking polymer blocks in the ocean: the specifics of the polymer blocks wouldn't matter at all as long as the surface doesn't degrade into spreading microplastics and total density would be high enough to sink, and they could be shaped like standard containers for easy logistics. The result of the mind experiment is always the same, even that could not possibly compete with leaving fossils underground.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by fastball on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @11:29AM (#25930208)
Fossil fuels are not the only thing we do that cannot be carbon neutral though, such as construction with cement.

Additionally, carbon capture does not necessarily mean we are burning "fossil" fuels. Carbon capture could be using the Sabatier process to create methane from the CO2 in the air, which you then use to power rocketships/jets/etc, which we are still not very close to electrifying.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by gandalfian on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:33AM (#25927425)
We could turn the trees into furniture and surupticiously spread them out in buildings around the world. Hey wait a minute?
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by usrusr on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:13AM (#25927799)
So the missing link would be a second page in the manual where the reverse path from furniture back to flatpack is described? A nightmarish challenge, definitely makes me the Ikea manual guy with the questionmark, ready to phone into the help line.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by TedDoesntTalk on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:32AM (#25927417)
> to get a long term net effect we'd have to bury them about as deep as the fossils we are excavating.

Why? What is wrong with capturing carbon the way trees naturally do? (Honest question)

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by usrusr on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @08:03AM (#25927686)
Trees are part of a closed cycle: eventually they burn or are decomposed biologically (fungi and animals). As far as I know, all the high quality fossil reservoirs we excavate have been accumulated in an exceptional era when the biological defense mechanisms of trees happened to have so much of an upper hand over all potential decompositors that their corpses basically stayed around forever. Imagine a C heap when for a while free() is a noop... (it has been fixed for quite a while now).

The closest thing we have today to those "eternal tree corpses" are peat bogs were decomposition is kind of broken even today (and guess who discovered that dried up peat can burn, even if it's a very dirty fire? Humans. We just love oxydating carbons).

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by detritus on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:54AM (#25927620)
I think they mean 'after the tree has been cut down or otherwise reached the end of its life'.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:24AM (#25926903)
And then release a large majority of it when they die and are eaten by fungus and bacteria.

https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/recycling-dea...

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by enriquto on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:39AM (#25927018)
Thus, growing a tree and burning the wood (or disposing of it) is 100% carbon neutral. What's the problem, then?
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:58AM (#25927143)
The problem is that it's useless for sequestering carbon that's already in air, that we sourced from deep underground.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by enriquto on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @07:09AM (#25927240)
Yes, the obvious step would be to stop burning fossil carbon, it seems like a much more pressing issue than sequestering the one that is already in the atmosphere.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by kaybe on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @12:42PM (#25931222)
By now we need to do both, there is already too much carbon in the atmosphere. If you look at the IPCC projections, 1.5°C is only achievable with carbon capture of some sorts [0] (if at all). Research and development for this has to be pushed yesterday.

Though word is in the air that the previous assessments might have been very optimistic.. although that will probably only be discussed in 2022 when the 6th assessment report is to be published. Which presses the issue only further.

[0] https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/sites/2/2019/02/SPM3...

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by fastball on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @11:30AM (#25930222)
People probably aren't going to be flying around in wood-powered passenger jets any time soon.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by ognarb on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:41AM (#25927039)
I mean sure, but a forest will still capture more carbon than a plain. And it provides many more advantages than just capturing carbon for the diversity of our ecosystem.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by arcticbull on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:58AM (#25926684)
Ooh and stop mining Bitcoin
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by fastball on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @11:20AM (#25930098)
Actually, as part of "Electrify everything", it would probably be good to replace a significant chunk of the banking system with a cryptocurrency layer (maybe bitcoin, maybe not).

With green energy, digital gold is a lot more green than physical gold. Bitcoin is like electric cars – not super green right in this moment when the grid is still dirty, but all it takes to make it greener is to green up the grid.

Meanwhile the classical banking system: uses all forms of transport which green up slower (armored cars, planes, etc), requires crazy amounts of construction (I don't even want to guess how much cement has been used in the construction of physical banks all over the world), all those buildings use energy for AC/lighting/etc, require huge amounts of manpower to manage trust in the system (people definitely aren't green), and also need their own datacenters anyway. And I'm sure I'm forgetting some things, where as with BTC pretty much all consumption is baked into mining, which again just gets greener automatically as the grid gets greener. Nobody is running a Bitcoin mining operation off of diesel generators. If you did the math (impractical given the breadth of the existing banking system), I think you'd find Bitcoin is already far greener than the existing banking system, by a huge margin.

And cryptos like Ethereum have the potential to 10x/100x/1000x that with things like PoS vs. PoW as well as the fact that Ethereum smart contracts can not only replace banking but probably other industries as well, such as title companies and various other middlemen.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by arcticbull on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @01:30PM (#25931897)
> And cryptos like Ethereum have the potential to 10x/100x/1000x that with things like PoS vs. PoW as well as the fact that Ethereum smart contracts can not only replace banking but probably other industries as well, such as title companies and various other middlemen.

It's been 13 years now and nobody's done it, because that's a terrible idea. The reason lawyers exist is that all contracts have ambiguity and require a human to review and consider. All contracts have circumstances that aren't captured. Just ask the DAO folks.

Middlemen exist for a reason. Efficiency, conflict and ambiguity resolution, and so on.

Blockchains are only useful for things that are entirely captured within the blockchain. As soon as you interface the blockchain with the outside world you have to trust something to enter and capture that data accurately - garbage in, garbage out. Once you're trusting someone, you don't need a blockchain, just fire up and RDS instance and save everyone the headache.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by fastball on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @02:58PM (#25933111)
For starters, I think you're underestimating how much of what we do in the modern world is entirely digital and therefore can be entirely captured in a blockchain. There are decentralized trustless platforms running on Ethereum right now. You can transact currency on a plethora of decentralized exchanges, without all the layers that doing so with an exchange of USD -> RMB requires today. There are pilot programs built around blockchain that allow people to sell excess energy production (e.g. with home solar) back to other people on the "grid" in an entirely decentralized way.

And with tokens that are tied to real-life things, the benefit is that once you've used real-world trust systems (e.g. real-life contracts / lawyers / courts / etc) to tie something to the blockchain, you can (going forward) hand everything over to the trustless and secure system. i.e. You tie your property to the blockchain once, and from then on you don't need to involve all those inefficient systems, you just transact the tied token directly on the blockchain.

Just because it hasn't been done successfully yet doesn't mean it's not viable. How long did the internet exist before [thing that is taken for granted on the internet now] was successful?

Finally, Ethereum launched in 2015, not sure where you're getting 13 years from.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by loceng on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:08AM (#25926769)
But how else will people make money than in a global, decentralized pyramid/MLM scheme?
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by WesolyKubeczek on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:46AM (#25927065)
s/make/lose/

But I see your point.

We should make a pyramid/MLM scheme where you're promised rewards for planting trees, segregating waste, cleaning up in any potential wildlife habitats, and reducing/reusing stuff in general.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by afarrell on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @05:39AM (#25926542)
> even more in panic and hair-on-fire about environmental issues

Panic is rarely useful. It might lead you to move at high and low velocity.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by afarrell on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @09:55AM (#25928928)
that should be: high speed and low velocity.
Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by KorematsuFred on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @06:11AM (#25926786)
Great example. Reminds me of Milton Friedman's "Nobody knows how to make a pencil" essay.

A lot of human progress is result of human actions but not planning. Centralized planning around "climate change" would 100% be a recipe for disaster and a monumental failure about which future generations will write for 100s of years just the way we talk about slavery today.

Your use of carbon makes my existence on the planet a bit risky and hence you should pay me some compensation. But how much ? That is an impossible task for anyone and not just for the centralized government systems but even for highly efficient private players looking at very small problems. This is something that even outright climate change deniers like me admit.

Re:IKEA buys 11,000 acres of U.S. forest to keep it from bei... by loceng on Wednesday January 27, 2021 @02:08PM (#25932427)
It comes down to you do whatever bare minimum "we" determine is necessary to do your part in this struggle, or we'll eventually go to war to hold the line if your practices unsustainablility outweigh the cost of war; arguably in globalised society you can and should use economic levers first.