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Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by rdsubhas on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:04PM (#25865837)
Popular OSS licenses were designed in an era to allow direct customers (businesses) to directly install and use the software, and redistribution means only distributing the package.

Nobody at that time knew or predicted that SaaS (let alone cloud computing) would be a thing, that large, profitable middlemen will directly host the software, pass through just the API, with zero customer exposure to the running instance.

AWS taking advantage of this — yeah sure it may be legal, like how business lobbying senators for obvious policy hacks is legal — but doesn't mean it's fair or acceptable. It's totally OK to call them out here and not reward them for it.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by stefan_ on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:21PM (#25866638)
> The first version of the Affero General Public License (AGPLv1), was published by Affero, Inc. in March 2002

Stallman strikes again!

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by kevincox on Friday January 22, 2021 @08:06AM (#25871335)
The AGPL was a good attempt but it seems that it too vague. For example even Google, with its teams of lawyers doesn't feel comfortable using it for any purpose.

https://opensource.google/docs/using/agpl-policy/

It appears that they are concerned that it may be argued that if for example YouTube uses an AGPL DB that they would be required to release YouTube under AGPL.

I'm not saying that the interpretation is correct, but if companies can't be sure they won't use your software.

And to be honest IANAL but their interpretation seems reasonable to me. If you put Mastodon behind NGINX I think it is fairly easy to argue that the user is "interacting with it remotely through a computer network". So now if you have a theoretical AGPL Elasticsearch and your site sends the user search query to it and returns the user the results it doesn't seem clear that this is a legally meaningful difference. I certainly wouldn't want to argue that in court. I'd just use different software.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by toyg on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:23PM (#25867497)
Stallman will break all sorts of records for being “the most annoyingly correct forecaster of computer trends with the less affable personality ever”.
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by fastball on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:13PM (#25865931)
Then Elastic should've come up with a non-Apache-2.0 license at inception.

Licenses exist for a reason. The onus is on the person choosing the license to choose one which aligns with their intentions. You cannot and should not expect downstream consumers of the software to confine themselves to some subset of the actual license's allowed activities just because it's the "nice" thing to do (as of course this assumes morality is in any way objective).

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by dodobirdlord on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:41PM (#25866774)
They made a mistake with their original licensing, and now they have corrected it. The comments on this post seem strangely invested in Elastic not fixing their mistake.
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by neop1x on Saturday January 23, 2021 @07:24AM (#25881725)
Did they made a mistake? It looks to me that they took advantage of Splunk being proprietary. Not many people would use closed Splunk alternative. So they have made an open alternative and everyone loved it and this is what created the community and made them popular. Then they started using their position to force people into their proprietary Basic package because there was no security in the OSS version. That caused many data leaks from unsecured Elastic clusters. Can you imagine MariaDB not having any security by default? Or nginx without ACL? I never cared about Machine Learning, APM, SIEM and their other "products". Then they released "basic security" which was not open and was still pretty limited (e.g. not supporting OpenID). Elastic is big now, listed on the stock exchange so I understand they have to listen to their shareholders. While I don't like Amazon business and I am not their customer, I actually welcome this attempt to finally make a basic usable Elastic really open!
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by fastball on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:22AM (#25868602)
Right but "who is wrong" is what the disagreement is about, and if Elastic made the mistake then arguably it is them who are wrong.

In contrast, a number of people here are acting as if AWS is totally in the wrong. But the only wrong here is Elastic making the mistake and then acting as if the whole thing is AWS' fault. No, if you license your software improperly that's on you, not anyone else.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by hrktb on Friday January 22, 2021 @02:09AM (#25869243)
Does it need to be a binary thing ?

Elastic made a strategic mistake, and Amazon made the jerk move that was open to them.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by kevincox on Friday January 22, 2021 @08:09AM (#25871346)
What about Elastic making the "jerk move" by switching the license under Amazon?

Amazon built the product with the hope that it would continue to be developed with that license. What are they supposed to do with the license change? Just accept whatever Elastic said? I don't think you can blame them for taking the last version where they agreed with the license and continue to use and develop it. Sure, maybe making it open is a bit of a jab back, but even in isolation it makes sense for them.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by Xylakant on Friday January 22, 2021 @11:29AM (#25873061)
> What about Elastic making the "jerk move" by switching the license under Amazon?

They’re also switching out the license under everyone else. It’s maybe notable that elastics cloud offering was acquired at some point (it used to be found.io). I used to do elasticsearch consulting and I could name a few customers that will now have to reevaluate their product.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by eloisant on Friday January 22, 2021 @05:51AM (#25870501)
I don't see how AWS is being a jerk.

They're a hosting company, they're hosting open source software and they're doing it well.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by hanniabu on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:17PM (#25866599)
What open source license would prevent someone from capitalizing on your project?
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by Phrodo_00 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:29PM (#25868329)
No open source license prevents people from capitalizing your project. Adding a non-commercial clause to an OSS license makes it not comply with OSS anymore.

Preventing companies from hosting the software with propietary changes can be done with licenses like the AGPL, but again, the objective is not to disallow commercial use, but rather to force the source code to be available for the users of the software.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by fastball on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:24AM (#25868615)
None. That's... kinda the point of OSS.
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by __blockcipher__ on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:20PM (#25866026)
And frankly, I don't even buy the morality argument. It is a moral good to provide value to customers such that they voluntarily choose to give you money in exchange for that value.

These people have this bizarre fusion of capitalist and communist reasoning, I really can't reconcile it. On the one hand they seem to think profit is fundamentally evil, but on the other hand they seem to think the problem is that Elastic isn't being allowed to monopolize all the profit.

Well, which is it? Did Elastic release non-restrictively-licensed free software out of the goodness of their hearts, giving it away with no expectation of a return? Or did they create this codebase purely for profit, and thus have no claim to moral highground? It's all so silly and childish.

And the biggest irony is, Elastic is already a successful business. They're trying to pretend their business model is not viable as long as Amazon keeps operating, which is just gaslighting.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by danShumway on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:26PM (#25866095)
> Nobody at that time knew or predicted that SaaS (let alone cloud computing) would be a thing

I'm not old enough or experienced enough with computer history to seriously argue about this, but this statement sets off some alarm bells for me.

My understanding is that extremely early on in computing history, especially early in the Internet era, people were thinking about SaaS. We had shared terminals, Sun was even trying to turn remote VMs into a feasible business model. I am very skeptical of the idea that Open Source developers never considered that someone might want to sell computer hosting or provide API access to a virtual environment.

I mean, doesn't the whole problem with modern Linux security stem from the fact that it's user-specific; that it was designed around this idea that it would be running on a server and accessed by a bunch of different user accounts & terminals? It was personal computers that were the surprise, not shared hosting and remote terminals/APIs.

Am I off base here? This doesn't square with how I understand computing history.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by toyg on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:54PM (#25867754)
Let’s leave alone for a moment the fact that the most permissive licenses (BSD, MIT) were not really designed, as much as they appeared out of historical accidents as a “just don’t bother us” device...

When it comes to licenses that were written “with a plan”, there is a charitable reading and an uncharitable one.

The charitable reading is that, back then, it was assumed that every computer user, local or remote, would have access to a compiler; and that any user would eventually learn how to operate a compiler, hence making it obvious that they would want to mod and compile the software they ran. And then they saw the licenses worked well enough to develop an ecosystem, and more or less left it at that (unless explicitly threatened, as they did when reacting to freeloading trends in embedding with the GPL 3).

The less charitable reading is that they left the door open precisely because they knew it ensured demand for service providers and system administrators (which many of the original “foss hackers” were, in their day job).

In any case, I don’t think anyone would have predicted they would become so dominant; everyone just assumed the big commercial vendors would be around forever, and FOSS would always be the underdog ecosystem; hence, leaving certain activities commercially unburdened would have always been somewhat necessary.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by fulafel on Friday January 22, 2021 @12:45AM (#25868732)
Cloud computing is a very slippery term to pin down.

If you think about it the usage is best described tied to a an era of pay as you go services launched in the first decade of the 2000's.

There's otherwise not that much in common between Google Docs, pay-as-you go VPS/VM, Kubernetes, platforms like GCP/AWS, and Dropbox.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by ed25519FUUU on Thursday January 21, 2021 @07:27PM (#25866679)
By your reasoning Linus Torvalds should be getting a cut of any money made on a linux host.
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by mhh__ on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:23PM (#25867496)
Ignoring that Linus himself isn't particularly software freedom-y (I think he, entirely and provably correctly in my view, firmly believes in open source as a way to achieve good software, but the freedom angle isn't as important as for someone like Stallman), Linux being GPL is arguably the reason why it dominates - any changes worth talking about to Linux get propagated publicly and openly, as opposed to if it were under a permissive licence.
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by rdsubhas on Thursday January 21, 2021 @09:31PM (#25867568)
Not exactly the same. As I mentioned in the comment, you have direct access to the Linux OS when you host. Open as in access to the underlying OS is open. You can configure it, install packages that you want, etc.

When you run AWS Elasticsearch, you have no access to ES instance. You can't configure it, you can't add your own plugins. You are no longer a user, you are just a consumer of the UI/API, even when the primary product is still called Elasticsearch.

Big difference.

Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by literallycancer on Friday January 22, 2021 @07:48AM (#25871226)
When you run code on a lambda or a serverless VM you never see the OS either.
Re:AWS announces forks of Elasticsearch and Kibana by optimuspaul on Thursday January 21, 2021 @10:45PM (#25868078)
but that is a feature of their offering. You are comparing apples to oranges here.