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Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by cogman10 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @01:35PM (#25850102)
While pardon power originated from British law, the reason we kept it was what the OP referred to (see the federalist papers [1]).

When forming the government the founders didn't just blindly copy British government. There was a lot of debate over what to keep and what to omit (For example, we don't have a king. Presidents were seen as servants not as rulers).

Pardon power is mostly a direct copy of British pardon power. However, there was a reason for that beyond not getting around to reform.

It should also be noted that presidential pardon power, while very powerful, isn't unlimited. The president can only pardon federal crimes, they cannot pardon state crimes. That's an important break from British law where royalty had(?) unlimited power to pardon any crime. Particularly when pardon power was first envisioned, the founders looked towards a very small federal government. In that case, the number of federal crimes were far fewer than what we have today. That means, the presidents pardon power was pretty much only for crimes such as treason.

In other words, absolutely the founders were influenced by British government. They weren't, however, just blindly copying things. Everything went through debate.

[1] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed74.asp

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by simonh on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:27PM (#25852226)
That's a perfectly reasonable take especially on the federal/state separation which was novel, but is it really not possible there was some back-rationalisation going on?

The British system was very familiar, and while it had potential flaws visible to them at the time they were known familiar flaws. I find it doubtful that someone coming up with an entirely novel and unfamiliar system would have got anywhere at all, no matter how rational and well argued it was. People like familiar and that can affect their judgement. Just worth considering.

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by cogman10 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:03PM (#25852587)
I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm not disputing the fact that they took ideas directly from the British government. I disputing the fact that it was done without consideration, reform, or reason. There's ample evidence that they heavily debated each part of the British government that they adopted.

The fact is, the founders remedy for a corrupt president was impeachment. They made that perfectly clear. Corruption included things like misusing the pardon power (High crimes/Bribery).

What they didn't anticipate was the fact that we'd end up with a 2 party system equally spitting the country where neither side would remove their president from office. The put a LOT of faith in "honor" and the fact that the general electorate would punish dishonorable leaders. They did not expect things like wedge issues.

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by johnmaguire2013 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:00PM (#25852561)
> That's a perfectly reasonable take especially on the federal/state separation which was novel, but is it really not possible there was some back-rationalisation going on?

Isn't this true of your own original post?

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by simonh on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:25AM (#25856113)
What is it that you think I'm back-rationalising?
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by johnmaguire2013 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @06:49PM (#25866340)
Sorry, I'm pointing out that you and the other commenter are both just speculating: "but is it really not possible that...?"

I don't really understand what argument you're trying to make.

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by simonh on Friday January 22, 2021 @11:15AM (#25872910)
No real point. I'm not even saying it's a bad system. I just find it amusing that the US system is held up as a shining example of modern enlightened constitutional innovation, where in fact the president is an elected, limited term British King circa 1770.
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by AndrewUnmuted on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @02:44PM (#25851020)
In addition, the US Constitution introduces another dimension to the idea of separation of powers - that the various branches of government should be able to counteract one another in certain circumstances.

The British approach is more appropriately labeled not as a separation of powers, but a fusion of powers [0] - probably the strongest example of such a government currently around today.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_of_powers#United_Kingdo...

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by skissane on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:51PM (#25864075)
> The British approach is more appropriately labeled not as a separation of powers, but a fusion of powers [0] - probably the strongest example of such a government currently around today.

The Westminster system subordinates the executive branch to the legislative, but keeps the judicial branch independent.

(In the past, the judicial branch in the UK was not completely separated from the legislative and executive, due to the judicial roles of the House of Lords and the Lord Chancellor, but that all changed in 2005. And other Westminster system countries such as Canada or Australia didn't have that issue.)

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by WalterBright on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:49PM (#25852453)
> they cannot pardon state crimes

State governors have that power.

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by cogman10 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:56PM (#25852525)
Correct, but that wasn't given to them by the US constitution. Rather, that power rests with each individual state constitution. Further, depending on the state, it can be anywhere from unlimited to completely bound. [1]

The role of "governor" isn't defined by any federal laws or rules. It's theoretically possible for a state to decide that it doesn't need a governor.

[1] https://ccresourcecenter.org/state-restoration-profiles/50-s...

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by skissane on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:47PM (#25864023)
> It's theoretically possible for a state to decide that it doesn't need a governor.

The guarantee clause (Article IV section 4) says "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..." What constitutes a "Republican Form of Government"? Is having a governor essential to it?

I think the answer is nobody can really say because the Supreme Court has never had to consider that exact question, and nobody knows how they'd rule if they did. They have previously ruled that the guarantee clause is "non-justiciable" (in Luther v. Borden, 1849), which implies they'd let a state adopt whatever form of government it likes, but they could change their mind about that if they wanted to.

What if a state wanted to adopt the Westminister system, like a Canadian province or Australian state? What would SCOTUS have to say about that?

Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by tehjoker on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:14PM (#25851343)
The pardon power should obviously at this point be severely limited, it has a purpose, but clearly its major use is corruption or the threat of corruption in order to secure deals. So many modern presidents have used it to do crimes and then pardon their helpers.
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by throwaway09223 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:32PM (#25851608)
This is not so obvious to me. I don't think the evidence supports your claim that its "major use is corruption." The vast majority of pardons seem to be entirely unrelated to corruption.
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by mantap on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:32PM (#25851606)
However much you may dislike the particular individuals that trump has pardoned, he has used the pardon in a much more restrained way than Obama, who gave an order of magnitude more. So far, the pardon power is still a net good.
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by tehjoker on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:07PM (#25852004)
Okay, but why should the President be able to pardon people close to him including himself? Shouldn't the power be circumscribed to things that aren't obvious corruption? GWB pardoned Scooter Libby. George HWB pardoned Iran-Contra conspirators. Ford pardoned Nixon.
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by mandelbrotwurst on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:41PM (#25865552)
Maybe, what would such a law look like?
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by tehjoker on Thursday January 21, 2021 @05:58PM (#25865775)
You could start by forbidding pardons to members of presidential administrations for offenses incurred during their term. You could also make "crimes against humanity" ineligible as well which would forbid the pardons of the Blackwater contractors that massacred Iraqi civilians.
Re:Anthony Levandowski Pardoned by DFHippie on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:00PM (#25852570)
Trump has pardoned far fewer people, but for the same reason the ratio of compassionate to corrupt pardons under Trump is much worse. Dozens of Trump's pardons had some direct benefit to him or his cronies. And among modern presidents he has pardoned strikingly few people.

I am not aware of any corrupt pardons under Obama similar to that of Marc Rich under Clinton, much less more egregiously corrupt pardons like that of Ford by Nixon or Manafort by Trump.