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Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by whalesalad on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:26AM (#25791265)
I’m curious to see how fasting might influence cancer treatment. I know in other parts of the world it is seen as a legitimate treatment, while also potentially considered to be a hippy dippy homeopathic treatment. Anecdotally it seems you can starve certain cancers to death pretty easily by severely limiting your caloric intake. I sense a relationship between that and this study.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:40AM (#25791445)
From a non-medical professional's perspective it doesn't seem that strange. Medical treatments for cancer include "let's slowly irradiate you and hope the cancer dies first" and "let's slowly poison you and hope the cancer dies first". "let's slowly starve you to death and hope the cancer dies first" doesn't seem all that different.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by Blikkentrekker on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:57AM (#25791644)
Such treatments attempt to concentrate the radiation and poison where the cancer is, however.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by peterdemic on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:17AM (#25791877)
That is not entirely true... The prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to cells all over the body and it has no way of distinguishing cancel cells vs non-cancer cells. Targeted therapies are different and are becoming more widely used but are still small in percentage of patients compared to "classic" chemotherapy.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by PeterisP on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:43AM (#25792807)
"the prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to cells all over the body" I'm not a doctor, but isn't the case that the prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to new/growing cells all over the body, which is a way of distinguishing cancer cells (and a few types of tissue e.g. hair) vs most types of non-cancer cells?
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by peterdemic on Friday January 15, 2021 @02:14PM (#25794935)
Yes, that's correct! My bad for not being more clear!
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by TrackerFF on Friday January 15, 2021 @01:48PM (#25794553)
Quite some time I had classes on this - but I believe chemo (some at least?) is designed to attack cells with same growth-rate as cancer cells. So they're not attacking just everything in a non-discriminatory fashion - but cells with similar growth as cancer cells, become collateral damage, so to speak.

This is why some chemo will result in for example hairloss; Because the cancer you're being treated for, has the same growth rate as the cells in your hair - and thus the chemo will also kill those cells.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by excannuck on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:08AM (#25791767)
Insofar as cancer cells need more energy, starvation is also specific.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by kzrdude on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:53AM (#25792238)
Cancer cells are among the fastest growing cells. Limiting available nutrition - specifically for growth - should do them the most damage, is the thinking.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by majkinetor on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:08AM (#25791778)
Fasting certainly prolongs life by limiting resources to the cancer which can't handle it very well compared to your own cells (that do not grow as rapidly).

It can't cure tho, because liver and kidney will create most important resources for body to be able to work.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by krrrh on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:39AM (#25792743)
Valter Longo’s lab at USC has done extensive research on this, and developed a fasting mimicking diet that can be used in conjunction with cancer treatments. They found that it increases resiliency from chemotherapy in healthy cells and makes cancer cells more vulnerable.

This interview with Rhonda Patrick is a good introduction to his research, but it’s quite extensive and the papers are worth checking out if you’re interested in this topic.

https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/valter-longo-2

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by captaincrunch on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:45AM (#25791507)
No medical experience, other than as a patient... however I read the body can live up to two months without food (but with adequate water). If you managed to survive longer than the cancer cells, wouldn't they just come back after defeat? Doesn't this stem from DNA?
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by jaywalk on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:59AM (#25791664)
Same disclaimer as you on expertise, but cancer basically comes from one mutation when a cell divides that causes it to start dividing out of control. So if you manage to starve all of those out of control cells to death, you've eradicated the cancer. The caveat is that you've got to kill _all_ of the cells, not just most of them.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by chmod600 on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:30AM (#25792635)
Dumb question: why two months? Doesn't it depend on your fat reserves?

If you are 350 pounds, can't you just not eat until you are 150 and be fine? (I am not suggesting that this is true or that anyone should try it; I don't know and I am asking the question.)

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by beagle3 on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:56AM (#25792967)
With respect to energy, that’s apparently true.

However, metabolism has non-energy needs which are supplied through food: vitamins, minerals, protein, and some fats that cannot be synthesized iirc. Though these needs are greatly reduced when fasting, they do not go to zero.

Google “angus barbieri” for the most famous, though not unique, example for medically documented long term fasting.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by ThePadawan on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:51AM (#25792903)
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by dplgk on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:39AM (#25791432)
This didn't work for Steve Jobs
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by simplemen on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:41AM (#25791459)
He wasn't fasting, he was on fruits diet.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by tluyben2 on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:31AM (#25792034)
So what is 'allowed'? Because I have been seeing 'low calories' (fruits/carrot juice etc) to nothing, even no water to make sure your digestive system does not trigger at all. I know no-one knows this for sure, but what is the current theory?
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by DiabloD3 on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:46AM (#25792164)
If you're fasting for this sort of thing, you do not want an elevated insulin level. High insulin levels disable autophagy pathways.

The best way of doing this, based on years of science, would be, well, to eat nothing for 24+ hours at a time, but make sure you stay hydrated; as in, actually fast. The second best would be to seriously curb your carbs, under 30g a day; also tied for second best is to eat just once a day, none of this unscientific three square meals hogwash.

Three of these together could halt the progress of some cancers, and before the shitstorm that was 2020, scientists were publishing papers involving animal models on this.

Steve Jobs did none of these, and was, sadly, off in la-la land when someone with his money and connections could have had access to next generation scientifically-based treatments. Fruitarianism is, frankly, dangerous.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by rsync on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:01AM (#25792326)
The idea would be to have zero caloric inputs.

So water and coffee or tea (without milk, of course) would be fine. You're trying to avoid an insulin response and firing up the entire machinery of digestion.

I think it's non-controversial to say that this starves the cancer cells.

Perhaps less certainly we can also say that digestion demands a lot of resources and is an interrupt for a lot of other processes. When your body has nothing to do for 24-36 hours eventually lower priority tasks get attended to ... like garbage collection.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by agumonkey on Friday January 15, 2021 @02:58PM (#25795528)
Student said that sadly cancerous cells could last longer starving than healthy cells.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by majkinetor on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:28AM (#25792606)
Not zero. Fat has zero effect on insulin. You need to limit carbs and proteins.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by jaywalk on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:00AM (#25791687)
Yeah, and he also had a highly treatable form of cancer and access to the best medical care in the world. Unfortunately his arrogance got the best of him.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by thotsBgone on Friday January 15, 2021 @03:11PM (#25795705)
He was also on the fruits diet before the pancreatic cancer. Makes you wonder if the fruit diet contributed to the cancer.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by dplgk on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:03AM (#25791722)
He drank carrot juice which I'd say is severely limiting your caloric intake.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by teknopurge on Friday January 15, 2021 @01:43PM (#25794489)
Also keep in mind that sugar is the enemy. Your body has chemistry to make sugar - there is no-need to ingest it.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by Dirlewanger on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:23AM (#25791945)
Limiting your caloric intake is not the same as fasting.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by caymanjim on Friday January 15, 2021 @03:27PM (#25795919)
Jobs also had pancreatic cancer. It's just about the worst cancer you can get. Over 95% mortality rate. I don't think he did himself any favors by eschewing medical treatment in favor of alternative "medicine", but the harsh reality is that he was doomed no matter what.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by avaldeso on Friday January 15, 2021 @04:09PM (#25796528)
> Jobs also had pancreatic cancer. It's just about the worst cancer you can get. Over 95% mortality rate.

Jobs had GEP-NET cancer, which have 5 years OSR of 70% at stage IV. It's a slow growing cancer, very survivable and even surgically curable in early stage.

The fast, almost always fatal is the pancreatic adenocarcinoma.

Also, the mortality rate of a cancer is a function of many variables (stage at the time of diagnosis, tumor differentiation, tumor location, etc.). A number like 95% doesn't make any sense without a lot of context.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by sjg007 on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:59AM (#25791667)
There's some evidence it is beneficial and protects healthy cells from chemotherapy and radiation. Fasting and a keto diet force the body to use fatty acid metabolism.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by k__ on Friday January 15, 2021 @09:52AM (#25791587)
When I look at this image [0] it seems to me that muslim countries (which tend to fast once a year, I guess?) and poor countries have fewer cases of cancer.

But at least with the poor countries I'm not sure if it's because people die of other reasons before they even could get cancer.

[0] https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a0728f7c2418f32922558b...

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by capitainenemo on Friday January 15, 2021 @12:30PM (#25793442)
I'm not sure how detectable fasting during daylight hours 10% of the year would be. I'm thinking other confounding factors (like massive amount of fructose in diet driving obesity levels) in western countries would swamp that out. Not to mention the Ramadan fast is only a modest form of intermittent fasting. The caloric intake for the day is quite high, often higher than normal due to feasting, and the hours of fasting are anything from 12-18 (while eating once a day would be more like a consistent 21h of fasting year round).
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by vmception on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:26AM (#25791978)
That image doesn't warrant a single synapse of your thought without per capita numbers.

And then you can try to find other correlations.

Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by k__ on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:50AM (#25792204)
It says "rate per 100000 population" on the top right.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by vmception on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:05AM (#25792382)
thanks, did not see that on mobile. so now we can just skip right on over to how people in those African regions die before they even reach more probable cancer age, it absolutely is more so because of them dying, as you initially pondered. Life expectancy is an average, and that average is less than 60 years old in large regions.
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by chmod600 on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:31AM (#25792660)
Would the supposed benefits of fasting happen right away, or only after your fat reserves start to deplete?
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by whalesalad on Friday January 15, 2021 @11:48AM (#25792868)
Re:Why cancer cells waste so much energy by Dirlewanger on Friday January 15, 2021 @10:23AM (#25791940)
Yup, check out Cole Robinson who apparently has helped numerous people beat cancer with it (in addition to rapid weight loss). He's rough around the edges with his training techniques, but he knows how to motivate and gets results out of people. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_yUeH8TsG5pxqvkOxBtsFA