How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

I think the issue is one of the consumer's intent: are you buying a phone with a bunch of extra capabilities or a microphone hooked to a data center around the world? And that explicit decision is what is jarring to people who value privacy.

Of course they both have microphones hooked to data centers, but the Alexas/Echos are almost worthless without the microphone enabled. Many people I know have turned off listening for trigger words on their phone.

That being said, I have a HomePod that I have to manually press the touch button on top for it to listen. I use it for music, an occasional family conference call and occasional for generic assistant stuff like weather.

I tried a Google Home but couldn't get it configured in that mode -- listen on physical touch only (that was 3-4 years ago). And doubly couldn't get it setup without deep integration into a google account. The HomePod complains occasionally that it can't answer because it hasn't been personalized to an account, but is otherwise totally fine operating without access to my every inner thought (web/location history, etc.).

I'm just as concerned about every modern car essentially being a microphone hooked to a datacenter on wheels. And new TVs. And a few refrigerators and kids toys. And light switches. At least phones (well iPhones -- haven't used the last few Android versions) are easy to setup without listening enabled. And on iPhones it's opt-in during the setup process (the Siri checkbox is default on, but you are prompted to decide with no other confusing decisions on the screen at the same time).

> I have a HomePod that I have to manually press the touch button on top for it to listen

What's the difference? You trust it not to listen without the button press, I trust it to not listen without the wake word. To think that the distinction is meaningful is wishful thinking.

It's kinda meaningful. Wake words can be sometimes triggered by accident. Or by things like that commercial from a few years ago. A physical button press avoids all that.

So the worry is that it will be triggered accidentally and hear something you didn't intend it to, then that tiny, rarely occurring piece of data will be used against you?

I just see listening for a trigger word as surveillance. Your (and your guests) every word is analyzed and at least temporarily saved somewhere outside your control.

It's analyzed on the device, which is not outside your control. Besides, how do you know the same isn't true of the physical button?

I’m not seeing the difference. If you already have the cell phone in your home, you might as well get the smart speaker if you want the convenience of voice controls for playing music, setting timers, etc.

I don't think any consumer is buying a smart phone with the expectation (or intent) that it's recording them all the time, or sometimes, or at the behest of law enforcement, etc. They aren't really thinking about this when they buy a product like the Echo, either, I don't think. Also: a phone without a microphone will be of limited utility on calls. ;-)

The only way to be sure these devices aren't listening to you is to not have one at all. Or, as the person in this article did, take it apart and de-cap the chips to make sure.

In the case of smart phones, I think it's a mistake to assume that switching some of these functions off in the settings will actually have the desired effect: preventing the phone from recording audio without making the owner aware of this recording.

> are you buying a phone with a bunch of extra capabilities or a microphone hooked to a data center around the world

Yes.

I get that you're trying to be clever and say that it is actually both, but the question was clearly phrased so that the second option was in exclusive opposition to the first.

If anything it's even worse with a mobile phone because that follows you after you've left the house.

In my opinion, the difference is the amount of social pressure that is bearing down. Deciding to avoid products like the Echo and it's not a big deal. My mother-in-law will roll her eyes when I remind her we don't want for Christmas but it's not a big deal.

I can't really get away without having a cell phone. The slope has been slippery on this one; when I purchased my first smart phone this wasn't a big concern (but maybe it should have been). It's been several years and it's a bigger sacrifice, in my opinion, to give up a smart phone. Even if I wanted to, my employer might buy one for me, for instance.

I do think the expectation today is that everyone have a smart phone.

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation?

Back on topic, it's not a phones intended purpose to snitch on you, they usually do not listen into the room, without extremely malicious manipulation, and more so you simply can not realistically avoid having a phone in your reach, today. If I were talking business I would probably leave the phone outside too, for that matter, and I don't trust cheap communication hardware, either.

In real life drawing analogies by principle doesn't make for a good argument, most of the time, as life is adaptation and compromise, not a path through a logical circuit.

Do you honestly not see an obvious difference between a phone and an Amazon wired device intended to record and remotely analyze what's happening in the room?

>Do you honestly not see an obvious difference between a phone and an Amazon wired device intended to record and remotely analyze what's happening in the room?

I sure don't, from a security viewpoint. They are both cloud-connected microphones. Google is just as likely as Amazon to listen in surreptitiously. And my phone is 1000x more vulnerable to someone _other than_ Google listening in due to installable apps.

>Do you honestly not see an obvious difference between a phone and an Amazon wired device intended to record and remotely analyze what's happening in the room?

Do you honestly not see that there's no fundamental difference between the two? A CPU, ram, storage, wireless modems, microphones and a battery all running under software we don't control.

As far as intent, it's not possible to be sure about intent, you have to judge based on the information we have which is the features and capabilities of the device.

Why would a google phone be any less likely to be listening than a google home?

I addressed that point already in the post you're replying to.

You said it's not a phones intended purpose to snitch on you, but it's also not an Amazon Echo's intended purpose to snitch on you, so I'm not sure what point you're making if you're going to assume that the device is used for its intended purpose.

The only obvious difference I see is my Amazon device has a hardware mute/can be unplugged and my phone doesn’t have either option.

For me what made me give in was realising how useful the features would be in regards to ADHD, allowing for a new input modality that just straight up reduces the friction it takes for me to set a reminder.

It's routine that I will just leave an item and forget where it is several times a day that I take it almost for granted up until it causes me to be late going out the door. Now I can yell "Find my phone" (or wallet, keys, etc) and my phone is there. Yes I could go to my computer, go to the find my phone page, but there's just more friction and these issues happen to me all the time. The more things I link up to voice control, the more options I have in regards to accomplish a task, and sometimes voice is the most efficient means of going about it.

I can get entertainment like a podcast or music without a single screen being involved, which given that I inherently have low impulse control, is a nice separation of things. Or I can again, find my stuff without looking at any screens. Voice input can act as a lesser evil to screens.

Saying to just use FOSS and air gaps, because of how immature such solutions are, is effectively saying you shouldn't use these systems at all. The benefits of using the systems that exist today makes it so that the average person, like yourself, judge me less because I appear more punctual and less forgetful and more productive and better rested and so on. Being human, you are likely to disrespect me for being late and disorganized no matter what my excuse is, whereas you'll only disrespect me for using voice assistants if you know I'm using them, so it's a winning tradeoff. Just like how some will judge me for taking medication but only if they know I'm using it.

I take security seriously. I have separate networks for my smart devices that have no access to my secure home network. I stay current on all risks, and I'm a regular attendee of security conferences.

But I have Amazon smart speakers in every room (on their own network that can see the network my smart lights are on.) They're great. I don't worry about Amazon listening in.

I cannot agree more. In my home as long as I live I refuse to live with devices like this. And yes, I am that guy who keeps laptops / phones in a Faraday box (a cool project I completed in quarantine) while not in use haha. My friends actually really like the novelty of putting their phone / devices into the box when they come over - even if they make fun of me for it.