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Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by frongpik on Monday January 11, 2021 @10:00PM (#25741712)
What's natural about SE? From my limited understanding, SE tells us that all particles in the world are interconnected in a peculiar way by a "energy field" of some sort.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by wnoise on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @12:17AM (#25742619)
That would indeed by very unnatural. Fortunately that's nothing like what the Schrödinger equation says.

The basics of quantum mechanics are:

1. Any system can be described in a linear "state space", whose basis vectors (roughly speaking) are each possible arrangement of the things being described (every thing's location). However, all possible states include (complex) linear combinations of these. This is usually described as the "wave function", you can plug in any value for coördinates of all your things and get a number back out.

2. States in a closed system evolve according to the (time-dependent) Schrödinger equation, -i h-bar d/dt (state) = E(state). This is sometimes phrased as "energy is the generator of time translation" (note that this phrasing holds true in the Hamiltonion formulation of classical mechanics too, but with different, related meanings). Actually calculating this can be difficult, and you might need to do various tricks such as decomposing in a convenient basis.

No all-encompasing energy field binding and penetrating us needed, though the equation is non-local in the sense that it could depend on the entire world. (In fact, it's quasi-local in practice; energy is usually just a function of where things are (local), and how different that coefficient is on infinitesimally adjacent states (i.e. spacial derivatives of the wavefunction). But this does let changes propagate at any speed, including faster than light. Basic QM is not Einsteinian relativistic. It is perfectly Galilean relativistic in a very nice way though.)

3. If you measure a system, you're going to get results that are probabilistic with the probabilities proportional to the (absolute value of) the square of this wavefunction. After that, the state is reset to whay you measured, and evolution will proceed according to 2.

Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @04:47AM (#25744494)
You can actually skip 2, if you model yourself as part of the system as well (i.e. have an Ideal Observer who changes from “has XYZ knowledge of the system” to “observed ABC about the system” for all possible ABC, with respective amplitudes) – but then you're doing a lot of computation you're never going to use for prediction. (It's more elegant, though – even more so if you model yourself as a human, though this'll take more computational power than we have.)
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by wizzwizz4 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:01AM (#25762026)
I meant skip 3. Skipping 2 is like making a laptop without a processor.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by bollu on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @04:56AM (#25744587)
And why is this "natural"? I find the collapse to be the strangest axiom, the rest I can handle.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by jfengel on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @09:48AM (#25747571)
Collapse isn't actually an axiom. It doesn't appear in the Schroedinger Equation at all.

It comes in when you treat the measurement apparatus as separate from the thing being measured. When you do that, collapse flows naturally from that assumption. It's a valid approach, and very useful, but many people find it philosophically awkward.

An approach that's philosophically easier, but less pragmatic, is to treat the masurement apparatus as part of the system. Now you've got one single enormous quantum system. The math of that is far too complex to actually run, and more importantly, too enormous to hold itself in an unstable equilibrium. It must fall into a more stable equilibrium.

The tricky part is when there's more than one stable state. The measurement apparatus exists in both of those states, and returns opposite results. The states are in local equilibria, and don't exchange significant amounts of state with each other.

You can call that "splitting universes", if you want, though I think that's needlessly messianic. Like the first one, it's perfectly valid. And pragmatically it acts just like collapse. There's a philosophical question about whether the other states "actually exist but can't be reached" or "don't exist at all since we can't prove it except by inference from the fact that this one exists and follows the Schroedinger Equation so closely". That's "philosophical" in the sense that there is no physical difference between the two, but just one of your mental model.

That's a lot of words; sorry about that. But the point is that you don't need a collapse axiom, and if you choose to add one, it's not strange.

Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by wnoise on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @03:10PM (#25752766)
In standard quantum mechanics, collapse absolutely is an axiom. I really have a lot of sympathy for the Everettian no-collapse position, with effective collapse caused by interactions with the environment. Nevertheless, the measurement problem hasn't actually been solved. The Born probabilities haven't truly been derived, except under some truly restrictive assumptions.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by lmm on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @10:10PM (#25757544)
> Nevertheless, the measurement problem hasn't actually been solved. The Born probabilities haven't truly been derived, except under some truly restrictive assumptions.

True enough, but what else could you expect the experience of being in the Everettian universe to look like? I think it's fair to say that experimental results are at least compatible with reality following the Schroedinger equation without needing a collapse postulate.

Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by SiempreViernes on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @06:59AM (#25745678)
Well one definition of "natural" could be that it "came from nature", and as the Schrödinger equation perfectly describes non-relativistic events in nature arguably it came from nature just as much as newtons laws of motion.

Another measure of naturalness is "simplicity", and the Schrödinger equation is a fairly simple expression.

You might argue that it's results don't feel very intuitive, and therefore it is not natural. But then I why you think its intuitive that levers work.

Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by mjfisher on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @03:11AM (#25743778)
You might be thinking of Quantum Field Theory, which models particles as excitations in fields specific to those particles. It's completely compatible with the Schrödinger equation, but operates on a higher level of abstraction to allow easier understanding of systems of multiple particles.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by lmm on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @12:51AM (#25742846)
It's a very simple equation and it's kind of the "square root of" the basic wave equation (d^2x/dt^2 = -k x). So it's the most obvious way to have an equation that can describe a space where waves are pervasive but there are also non-wave things, which is what reality is.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by postalrat on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @01:00AM (#25742912)
That's pretty vague. Something so obvious, correct, simple and clear should have a more straight forward explanation.
Re:Is the Schrödinger Equation True? by lmm on Tuesday January 12, 2021 @10:06PM (#25757518)
Well, what are you claiming is more obvious/correct/simple/clear? Certainly I'd hold that it's more so than any other major physics: relativity, Maxwell's equations, or even Newtonian mechanics are less clear IMO.