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Re:Stripe bans Trump campaign by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @03:05AM (#25726074)
> There shouldn't be any problem with these discussions when they're posed without hate. Immigration for example should be discussed in terms of cost/benefit and immigration of talent, policies, etc.,

The idea that immigration is solely about “cost/benefit” and “talent, policies, etc.” is an inherently liberal, and indeed quite radically liberal framing of the issue.

The International Convention on Civil and Political rights recognizes that distinct “peoples’” have a human right to self determination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination. That is, distinct identifiable groups have a right right to self-governance.

That is the basis for national borders as we know them today. But if distinct people have a right to self governance, it follows that nations have a right to control immigration for whatever reason they want, including the characteristics that make them distinct.

It’s wholly legitimate for a country not to take immigrants who they think might change the culture of the country, or not fit in, or simply because they don’t want to. It doesn’t have to be justified with some sort of economic analysis. It’s not “hate spewing” when the Japanese refuse to accept immigrants for no reason other than large scale immigration would change Japan’s culture. It’s likewise not “hate spewing” for someone in Boise Idaho to say “I like my society the way it is, and I don’t want people here who have a different history, political tradition, etc., especially when they’ll be voting on the laws that govern me.”

My family is from Bangladesh. My parents are fairly Americanized, but they really don’t understand some of the subtler things about American culture, like our anti-elitism and love of guns. In Bangladesh, the elite govern and there is no “glorification of the common man.” It was also disarmed by the British, so there is no gun culture. This results in hilarious arguments between my dad and my wife, whose family populated the Oregon coast on the wagon trails, who still hunt for food and hate the government for taking their homestead to build the pacific coast highway. Immigration inherently changes the culture and people are fully entitled to support it or oppose it, or support slowing it or increasing it on that basis.

But liberals usually can’t even see that dimension of the issue because they’ve internalized cultural relativism.

Re:Stripe bans Trump campaign by systemvoltage on Monday January 11, 2021 @03:56AM (#25726408)
America has embodied immigration since the Naturalization Act of 1790, albeit for white persons only. Perhaps you're mistaking a country such as Japan? America is far more liberal than what you indicate. Immigration in the US has always been a major centrist point of view since the dawn of this nation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790

Re:Stripe bans Trump campaign by rayiner on Monday January 11, 2021 @07:49AM (#25728199)
The fact that the US long favored immigration under different circumstances doesn’t mean that it’s an impermissible view to oppose it right now. There was a strong period of immigration restriction starting in 1920 where the foreign born population dropped to 5% while the country became culturally much more homogenous due to mass media. The foreign born population started rising again due to the 1965 INA and is now triple what it was in 1970. Also, the country is much more interconnected today since everything was federalized starting in the 1930s. Mass immigration to the coasts—where people coming from different political cultures back home would eventually start voting here-didn’t affect folks in the rest of the country as much during the mass immigration at the turn of the 20th century.

Also, you’re again painting the issue with a liberal brush by talking about “white persons.” That’s a viewpoint rooted cultural relativism—it overlooks that immigrants don’t differ only by race, but culture, political tradition, etc. It’s also incorrect: for example under the 1921 immigration act there was no restriction at all on immigration from Latin America, while it was restricted from every European country to an annual 3% of the existing population of people from that country. (Of course there was a racist element to it as well with the 1924 Asian exclusion act. But that confirms that there are two separate issue.)

I’m not trying to convince you of this point, I’m explaining why we can’t have folks in NYC and SF deciding what political ideas can be expressed online. American liberals have increasingly fully embraced cultural relativism, while American conservatives (and most ordinary people around the world) still believe that “culture matters.” Conservatives assume that culture drives societal differences, and, especially combined with a natural pessimism, are terrified of changes in culture. They also tend to live in the vast swaths of the country that have a low foreign-born population and fairly homogenous cultures. Ironically, as an immigrant myself it’s easy for me to understand someone in Idaho who is afraid of the culture of his community changing. Bangladeshis would feel the same way. Asians, in general, are not cultural relativists.