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Re:Wikipedia is 20 by throwawaysea on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:09AM (#25710496)
I've been funding Wikipedia for years and use it several times daily. It has indeed grown into an amazing source of knowledge documenting this world. However there are insidious problems building up. For example, I've noticed that they are starting to encode a lot of biases into its articles, particularly on topics that are part of the political sphere. These articles often reflect a US progressive-left worldview rather than a balanced view that reflects differing opinions from multiple sides of the aisle. There is also a distinct Western and English cultural bias in how articles describe and frame other countries, other cultures, and other religions.

I'm not sure what the fix is for these issues, but it does mean that I seek out opposing perspectives elsewhere when I read articles that concern such topics. It'll probably always be important for readers to seek multiple perspectives, including ones they disagree with, instead of blindly trusting Wikipedia to be correct. After all, it is written by humans.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by lovecg on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:15AM (#25710582)
Could you share an example of a biased article? I haven’t really noticed that (at least for the visible, high profile articles) - the coverage has been as balanced as anywhere.

Where it might get “extreme” is on niche topics that few people care about. For example I remember some articles associated with the whole “audiophile” scene were claiming some silly things without much evidence behind them, but that’s pretty innocuous in my view.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by mattcwilson on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:45AM (#25710923)
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by elliotec on Sunday January 10, 2021 @01:51AM (#25711610)
What about this article is biased?
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by tgv on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:41AM (#25712414)
I cannot judge if it's biased (in the way meant in this thread), but there is a rather weird statement right in the first section, "Factors that affect decisions":

> In psychology, the parental investment theory suggests that basic differences between males and females in parental investment have great adaptive significance and lead to gender differences in mating propensities and preferences.[10]

First, the reference is to a text book. That's not good. Second, the theory is not not widely accepted, and did receive criticism. It's certainly not an established fact. Third, the statement's prominent place, and lack of further qualification, suggests that human parents should take care of the amount care men and women invest in parenting, but that's not at all what the theory is about. The article linked explains that very clearly.

Why it was placed there is a mystery, but it's not been a neutral, well-informed edit.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by hobofan on Sunday January 10, 2021 @06:34AM (#25713651)
> Second, the theory is not not widely accepted, and did receive criticism.

Then contribute a link to that criticism? AFAIK that's the normal policy on widely criticized statements that are still popular enough that they should be mentioned.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by throwawaysea on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:30AM (#25710725)
One example is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_th..., which is about a term called "Cultural Marxism" which has been used by some mainstream right-leaning people as well as some right-leaning extremists (particularly in the past). If you look at the article itself, it titles this article as a "conspiracy theory" and specifically features the conspiracy theory version of "Cultural Marxism" in its opening sentences. However, the term as commonly used in modern times, does not refer to that particular conspiracy theory but is more like a shorthand for leftist ideology that features collectivism, particularly when it infiltrates academic institutions (and not the notion of a coordinated mass conspiracy).

From a quick Google search, I was able to find other articles that draw this distinction clearly (example https://spectator.us/whats-wrong-cultural-marxism/). However, the Wikipedia article doesn't draw this distinction well, and it seems intent on casting the phrase "Cultural Marxism" as racist, and so it features the worst interpretation of it. It sources articles that are also written primarily to repudiate right-wing political figures or intellectuals like Jordan Peterson. The related debate and edit wars are apparent when you look at the "Talk" page for this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cultural_Marxism_conspira.... Note that the Talk page mentions the article is controversial, is in dispute, that there have been attempts to recruit editors to change the article, there have been circular sources introduced, and so forth.

That's just one example, but if you dig deep enough into any topic that has a left- and right- perspective and a Wikipedia article, you'll find the same. Wikipedia is, in my view, developing a US-centric English-centric left-leaning bias. All that said, I still love Wikipedia and will continue to use it everyday. I just worry that like all human-centric institutions, it is itself a target, a theater of battle in the on-going ideological wars.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by sien on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:48AM (#25710961)
It's interesting to contrast that with the article on Neoliberalism.

Both are terms that are generally used to disparage views of others. Except for the new 'Neoliberal' clique who are centre left most people described as Neoliberals don't describe themselves that way. Just as what many right of centre would term as 'Cultural Marxists' wouldn't describe themselves that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by notahacker on Sunday January 10, 2021 @05:15AM (#25713086)
I'm not a fan of the label 'neoliberalism' (outside of IR theory where it's well-defined and different) and think it's often a marker for poor quality partisan analysis, but the fact is it's simply prepending a 'neo' in front of the well established and broad classical liberal school of thought to distinguish it from the colloquial US use of 'liberal' to mean 'left wing'. And most of the people referred to wouldn't argue with the idea their ideas are in the ideological tradition of Adam Smith, even as they take great issue with some of the nonsense written about their motives and ideals and argue a label so broad that the entire EU political project and most of its opponents falls into it isn't particularly useful for understanding politics or economics.

That's quite different from referring to the other side of a debate on sexuality as 'Cultural Marxism', despite Marx having had zero interest in sexuality, many self-proclaimed Marxist states having conservative policies on it and few people on that side of the debate having any interest in Marx. At best, you could argue right wingers describing their culture war opponents as Marxists are trying to invoke the spirit of Joe McCarthy rather than Lyndon LaRouche's ridiculous Frankfurt School conspiracy theory and literal Nazi origins of the term.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by throwawaysea on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:59AM (#25711099)
My feeling is that "neoliberalism" is a term with a greater degree of academic formality behind it, as well as consensus in terms of definition. I don't think it was originally pejorative, although it has come to be used as an insult, in the same way "Boomer" has. The term "Cultural Marxists" is probably pejorative to those it targets, although I've seen its use as a shorthand for a collection of ideas the right finds disagreeable, rather than a pejorative. It's a term that feels self-describing and immediately obvious to those who use it, but it does not have an academic foundation like "neoliberal" does. And its definition has varied over time, which is the cause of the current lack of consensus on what it refers to. As a result, each political side I think uses the definition that most favors their own ideological bias.
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by zozbot234 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:45AM (#25710921)
The article about the conspiracy theory has a disambiguating note pointing to "Marxist cultural analysis" as a more common term for the non-conspiratorial use of "Cultural Marxism". The remaining question is whether the conspiratorial use is significant/common enough that it deserves to be treated as the "default", and that's an editorial question that could be argued from either side. It's an uncomfortable situation to be sure, but there's no blatant political bias here.
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by mattcwilson on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:54AM (#25711036)
Check the sources cited in this particular sentence:

Scholarly analysis of the conspiracy theory has concluded that it has no basis in fact and is not based on any actual intellectual tendency.[5][7]

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by zozbot234 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @01:02AM (#25711139)
I'm not sure what your point is. That sentence is entirely correct with reference to the conspiracy theory - there's no actual conspiracy or "intellectual tendency" to conspire along the posited lines. Marxist cultural analysis is a rather different animal; to be sure, there are genuinely weird interactions between it and e.g. radical Maoist politics/worldviews which push some proponents of either towards an ideological extreme that's somewhat reminiscent of the 'Cultural Marxist' claims ("Destroy the Four Olds!") - but even then, that's a random/contingent political equilibrium; not a willful conspiracy or even a well-defined "intellectual tendency".
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by tgv on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:04AM (#25712600)
I think the point is that these articles don't prove anything of the kind. The first one "examines the ways in which Cultural Marxism has moved from the ‘fringe’ to the ‘mainstream’", paying "particular attention to the localised use of the conspiracy in the ‘Safe Schools’ controversy of 2016–2017, whereby Cultural Marxist tropes were imbued with local concerns about sexuality and gender issues". The second one "argues that “Cultural Marxism” is an antisemitic conspiracy theory", focusing "on three of the main proponents", and shows that it "misrepresents the Frankfurt School’s ideas and influence", the latter not being obvious from a quick reading.
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by zozbot234 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:27AM (#25710693)
> These articles often reflect a US progressive-left worldview rather than a balanced view that reflects differing opinions from multiple sides of the aisle. There is also a distinct Western and English cultural bias in how articles describe and frame other countries, other cultures, and other religions.

The problem is real as I've mentioned elsewhere, but it's overwhelmingly a sourcing problem. There simply aren't many sources about non-Western or traditionalist (as opposed to modern/progressive) worldviews.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by Bud on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:12AM (#25710540)
Could you cite some examples that you feel are especially egregious?

Have you tried to remedy this by editing any of those articles and backing up your edits with a solid factual argument?

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by Kim_Bruning on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:32AM (#25711945)
Saying that (en.)wikipedia has a US progressive-left worldview is subtly misleading.

Specifically en.wikipedia.org has a western (US/UK sphere of influence) worldview.

This is because en.wikipedia is/can be edited by everyone who speaks English: not just the USA, not just regular English speaking countries, but also all those countries that teach children English as a second language, (and a not insignificant smattering of people who learn English outside of school too)

When you compare countries around the world, The United States of America is said to lean rather right of center.

Thus from a US perspective you would expect en.wikipedia to appear to indeed be a bit on the left.

(this is not a comprehensive answer, but it does cover a lot of the ground)

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by zozbot234 on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:41AM (#25712014)
> When you compare countries around the world, The United States of America is said to lean rather right of center.

I'm not sure that this is the case. Maybe with respect to English-speaking countries, the U.S. leans more capitalistic which some people would call "right". But U.S. society/worldview is nonetheless far more liberal, socially progressive and open to diverse views than most countries around the world.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by Kim_Bruning on Sunday January 10, 2021 @02:57AM (#25712117)
So are you saying that the world has stood still, and that western thought in general and America in particular have not had any sort of positive influence on the world since 1776? ;-)
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by fireattack on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:24AM (#25712294)
I honestly don't understand what your satire is trying to say, and would agree with zozbot234's pretty straight forward reply: the US is probably lean right among Western countries, but compared to all the countries in the world, it's not. Most of Asian and African countries lean much more "right" compared to the US, as a starter.
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by Kim_Bruning on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:47AM (#25712462)
Specifically -as a nearly trivial statement- en.wikipedia is predominantly edited by those people who can write in English.

These can be:

* Native speakers: From eg. USA, UK, Canada, New Zealand, Ireland.

* People who speak English as a second language (which is most of the western world including western Europe)

In general out of this set of countries, the USA tends to be fairly (economically) conservative and right-leaning. (Compare with eg. Netherlands, Norway, Germany, France, Canada, New Zealand, etc. )

What makes you say that countries in eg. Asia are more right leaning than the USA? That surprises me a bit.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by fireattack on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:56AM (#25712539)
Of out this set of countries, I agree; but she/he specifically quoted a sentence from your original comment, therefore I think his/her observation is fine.

> What makes you say that countries in eg. Asia are more right leaning than the USA

By living there most of my life.

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by Kim_Bruning on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:09AM (#25712636)
Ah! Which country are you in, if I may ask? I'd like to look it up!

(In return: I'm currently in Germany, Netherlands. These countries are considerably left of the USA in terms of eg socialized health care and education, views on woman's rights, and general permissiveness and openness to new ideas.)

What do you consider right/left wing in this context, and how is the country you are in right wing? (Perhaps you're in Singapore or so?)

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by Kim_Bruning on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:06AM (#25712614)
I think I'd better explain the "1776" comment a bit better:

America was not the only country to have a great revolution. Starting almost a century earlier, and (in part following america's example) up to this day, many countries have seen revolutions or reforms. The world has continued to evolve and grow.

Americans are often taught of American exceptionalism, that an enlightened America is (was) alone in the dark.

Perhaps (nearly) so in 1776; But the fact today is that America is no longer the only nation with a liberal world view, social progressiveness and openness to diverse views. Now many other nations stand beside it or even ahead of it. This is not a bad problem to have of course (or even a problem at all! )

Re:Wikipedia is 20 by helloitsian on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:13AM (#25710551)
What would be a good place to find one of these biases?
Re:Wikipedia is 20 by incompatible on Sunday January 10, 2021 @12:47AM (#25710955)
Conservatives have set up their own version at http://conservapedia.com/. I can understand why a lot of that material isn't found in Wikipedia.