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Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by tedivm on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:03PM (#25618965)
If the government makes secret kills lists to murder US citizens, and the courts dismiss any lawsuits about this because the secret kill lists are secret, then it means the government can add anyone they want to the kill list with no repercussions or oversight.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by daenz on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:10PM (#25619003)
If it was legally allowed, there would be no reason to hide the lists and cover up the process. If there existed other evidence, outside of states secrets, that proved the actions, then there absolutely would be a valid case.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by pm90 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:16PM (#25619043)
The parent did not comment on the legality of the action but on whether the Government could execute on that action “without consequences or repercussions”. Arguing about the legality is a straw man argument, when the discussion is about what actions the Government can get away with (regardless of legality).
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by daenz on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:19PM (#25619061)
The government "can" do a lot of things. They "can" drone your home right now if they wanted to. The only thing that matters is if it is legal or not. Enumerating all of the things within the capabilities of the government is a meaningless exercise.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by Chris2048 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:31PM (#25619125)
> The only thing that matters is if it is legal or not

No it doesn't. If the public disagree with those actions they won't remain legal for long.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by daenz on Saturday January 02, 2021 @11:02PM (#25619311)
And there's a reason why, in your example, the end result of the public being unhappy is to change the laws: because at the end of the day, the only thing that holds any real weight in society are the laws. If the public disagreeing was enough, then there would be no need to have laws.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by aaronblohowiak on Sunday January 03, 2021 @11:20AM (#25622651)
> because at the end of the day, the only thing that holds any real weight in society are the laws

The world has a long sad history of showing this isn’t the case. The slow creep of authoritarianism usually happens by pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable and goes beyond the previous norms of legal interpretation.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by Chris2048 on Sunday January 03, 2021 @12:16AM (#25619687)
Sometimes officials choose not to do things "at their digression" based on public opinion, without the need to change laws. Also, the argument about changing laws is moot if we are discussion the suppression of information, from becoming public, and therefore motivating the law.

Basically, "if it is legal or not" is not the only important factor, because laws can change.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by pm90 on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:24PM (#25619092)
> They "can" drone your home right now if they wanted to.

It would be hard to imagine the Government getting away with bombing downtown San Francisco without any consequences.

Please make better arguments. You seem to be making deliberate bad faith arguments and nobody benefits from engaging in that kind of discourse.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by daenz on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:31PM (#25619121)
>It would be hard to imagine the Government getting away with bombing downtown San Francisco without any consequences.

I didn't say "downtown San Francisco", I said "your home." How would you prove that blew up your home? If you can't prove it, then they got away with it. My point is that when we open up the definition of "can" in this headline to mean "things the government can do and get away with", then it becomes meaningless if it's not bounded by the legality of those things. There are a boundless number of things, including assassinations, framings, etc etc, that the government "can" do and get away with.

So the only definition of "can" worth discussing, since the headline is intentionally vague about what "can" means, is whether or not it is legal to do the things described.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by dragonwriter on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:37PM (#25619164)
> It would be hard to imagine the Government getting away with bombing downtown San Francisco without any consequences.

No one ever faced any consequences for the MOVE bombing, and it wasn't even a secret that the (local) government did it.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by staybailey on Saturday January 02, 2021 @11:45PM (#25619533)
Wikipedia disagrees. Example: "In 1996, a federal jury ordered the city to pay a $1.5 million civil suit judgment to survivor Ramona Africa and relatives of two people killed in the bombing." The police commissioner was also forced to resign.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by selectodude on Saturday January 02, 2021 @11:02PM (#25619303)
If the US Federal Government decided to bomb San Francisco, I'm not sure who exactly would be able to render the consequences.

Parent is right, the law is abstract. Violence is absolute. If the largest dispenser of violence in human history decides to bomb San Francisco, they're going to do it, and it will be legal.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by leetcrew on Saturday January 02, 2021 @11:41PM (#25619512)
> If the US Federal Government decided to bomb San Francisco, I'm not sure who exactly would be able to render the consequences.

true, but only vacuously so. the "US Federal Government" is not some monolithic entity with a single will. it is made up of many organizations, factions, and individuals with their own motivations. if a military official ordered the bombing of san francisco, their subordinates may simply disobey them. if the orders were actually carried out, there would likely be other parts of the government that would find it politically expedient to hold those responsible to account. they may or may not be able to direct the use of force to do so.

the government can only take extreme actions when some level of internal consensus (or at least apathy) exists, as in the case of the MOVE bombing.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by rayiner on Saturday January 02, 2021 @10:41PM (#25619186)
This is talking about targeting decisions in a war zone.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by skedaddle on Sunday January 03, 2021 @03:48AM (#25620537)
The military is responsible for killing the people in the list, but from what we know they do not control who the targets are. That is a process that goes on in DC and ultimately just a few (perhaps one) civilians control the database, who is in it, and their "disposition".

There were a few claims that as a court they could not rule on and dismissed (like whether he was a proper target on the battlefield), but a few big questions remain. Is there due process around the kill/capture database, and does it violate free speech and press if someone can land in it for interviewing enemy soldiers?

These questions (which might not even have difficult answers) remain open because the government wouldn't turn over evidence.

Even with the parts about "targeting decisions in a warzone" and the like settled, the open issues here are pretty important.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by rayiner on Sunday January 03, 2021 @10:35AM (#25622313)
The military takes orders from the civilian government. But it’s a military operation at the end of the day, involving targeting decisions in a theater of war. Just because civilian officials dictate that targeting doesn’t change its military nature.

The requested discovery sought information about how targeting decisions were made for military strikes overseas. I see the argument for why, when a US citizen is involved, there might be a due process issue. But there is undeniably a huge state military interest in secrecy.

As practiced in the developed world, the rule of law does not encompass courts second-guessing military decisions overseas. Courts are primarily domestic and civilian by their nature. The Supreme Court has found that certain due process issues are implicated where US citizens are involved even with respect to conduct overseas. But there is a tension there with the legitimate prerogatives of the executive with respect to military action.

I’m curious whether any other developed country releases that sort of targeting information. To me knowledge, US courts are already more willing to intrude into military action abroad than courts in other countries.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by skedaddle on Sunday January 03, 2021 @04:48PM (#25625570)
You're equivocating now between the executive's power to conduct warfare, and an evidentiary rule that allows them to escape discovery. The nonjudiciable issues in this case were already dismissed.

No other developed country has a kill/kidnap database as large as ours. The US also has a bill of rights which does not depend on the rights respected in other countries across the world.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by rayiner on Monday January 04, 2021 @02:16AM (#25628566)
I'm not "equivocating" I'm pointing out the two things are necessarily related. The executive's primacy in making decisions about military strikes on a foreign battlefield may involve civilian decisions made in the U.S. But evidentiary privileges exist to protect those civilian decisions, because disclosure could undermine the military effort. The plaintiff is asking the government to disclose how it selects the people it chooses to attack on the battlefield. There is a clear military interest in not disclosing that. It may be the case that the military interest doesn't outweigh the interest in allowing civilian litigation to proceed. But it's an entirely legitimate think for the government to try and protect that decision making process from public scrutiny.

The Constitution describes a separation of powers. The executive has primacy when it comes to waging war. Courts have primacy in protecting the rights of individuals domestically. The Supreme Court has held that U.S. citizens outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S. have certain constitutional protections, which can be adjudicated by U.S. courts. That puts those spheres of power into conflict. On one hand, courts generally don't get to second-guess the military's targeting decisions. On the other hand, if a U.S. citizen alleges that the military is targeting strikes in a battlefield in an effort to kill him, that's exactly what the court has to do.

Other developed countries also distinguish executive from judicial power, and domestic from foreign theaters. How they address this tension is illuminating, I think.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by skedaddle on Monday January 04, 2021 @12:21PM (#25634564)
The privilege is based on it being in the public interest for information to be withheld -- that its disclosure would threaten the nation's security, not that it would threaten the executive branch's authority or ability to do its job. It being none of the courts' business, and the exposure threatening national security, are two different arguments.

Other forms of executive privilege that protect autonomy are easier to invoke, and easier to challenge. State secrets privilege cannot be used lightly. It's used all the time now, and there is reason to be suspicious that it is used fraudulently.

The courts really need to figure out a way to in principal allow US citizens bring a case in situations like this. You have to prove now, in essence, that your name is on an invisible piece of paper. I agree that the nomination procedure is extremely sensitive, but I think there is some room on the yes/no presence of someone on the kill list, given other supporting evidence. The danger is that we reveal to someone that we're trying to kill them -- but again, we're talking about a citizen, and if they have supporting evidence and are in court then they already suspect that.

Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by sudosysgen on Saturday January 02, 2021 @11:13PM (#25619368)
It's not actually a declared war, so no, not a warzone. In any case, the argument isn't reliant on that, it's sufficient that the name is on a secret kill list, no matter the reason for the argument to follow logically.
Re:DOJ Argues: US can kill own citizens without review when ... by tptacek on Saturday January 02, 2021 @11:22PM (#25619411)
It's as much a declared war as any since World War 2.