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Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by ddek on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:57AM (#25527957)
The Wire.

I'd tried to watch it a few times, but only a few months ago actually got past the first two episodes. I think it helped that I quite quickly saw it as a morally ambiguous discussion of the institutional ineptitude of conservative western cultures in mitigating the effects of crime, rather than a typical 'good vs bad' cop show.

With that mindset, the possibly-underwhelming finale of S1 is much more effective, and the sudden pace-change in S2 is more meaningful.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by OminousWeapons on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:27AM (#25528264)
The Wire is the greatest show that has ever been made in my opinion. It features thoughtful examinations of schools, corruption, media bias, policing policy, labor, drug legalization, addiction, politics, drug organizations, what it is like to be poor, and much more. The Wire also features the single most accurate portrayal of what it is like to exist in a large organization and how individuals within those organizations drive organizational momentum, policy, and culture at all levels. People complain about it being a little slow because real life is slow and the Wire is emulating real life. The ending of the show is also perfect in that it's absolutely not spectacular in any way. Season 1 is my favorite season.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by sharkweek on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:21PM (#25531065)
It’s easy to sound hyperbolic calling anything the “best” thing of its category, but no TV has even come close to The Wire for me.

Season four broke my heart with the adolescent kids. I can’t believe how good they all were in their roles, phenomenal performances.

The one minor scene that always wrecks me is where Bodie is talking to McNulty near the end of the series and says, “I feel old...”

The character is supposed to be a late teenager in that scene, and is already feeling worn out of life he has almost no chance of escaping.

That to me was the big takeaway. Too many things are stuck where they are: people, systems, etc.

As Marlo says, “You want it to be one way, but it’s the other way.”

Okay I’m done fan-boying. Yes, I’m this annoying when I tell my irl friends about the show as well.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by joseph on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:48PM (#25531267)
I'll never forget that scene with Marlo, with the lollipop in his mouth. It strangely makes him seem extra ruthless. My wife finds it odd that I remember such trivia, but that is one of the most prominent details of the whole series for me.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by sharkweek on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:52PM (#25531290)
Yes, thank you! That scene with the lollipop is vicious and the way he is in such control of the moment, unforgettable.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by hwestiii on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:20PM (#25531054)
The Wire really is a remarkable show in that, unlike a most of TV before it, it literally springs from who the characters are. The closest thing to an imposed narrative is the decision to focus on a specific segment of the phenomenon that is Baltimore, the police bureaucracy in S1, the white+ working class (well before DJT) in S2, etc. Literally everything else derives from the who the characters are, not the arc imposed by the writers. The scripts are as much channeled as written.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by hipparchus on Saturday December 26, 2020 @11:23AM (#25544334)
My issue with such a statement is that it most likely inevitably picks from a very specific subset of shows: that is, american and british shows (although the latter may even be quite a small subset of all british shows, if you are american), maybe with one or two other-anglospheric-country shows mixed in (probably a couple canadian shows, and maybe if we're lucky, one or two australian), and ignores the huge swathes of international tv production. That's without even going into the problem of age (most likely, your subset is composed mostly of shows of the > 1980s at best, probably a significant subset would be > 2000s). I don't mean to say that this is a "bad" subset, that is, I concede that it's inevitable that it contains great, and in some cases, sublime shows: we've gotten better at media production over the decades, and the financial and talent pools of the americans are nearly unparalleled. Yet I can't help but feel like the americano-centrism of the "Best shows of all times" list is worthy of criticism (I have similar criticisms for most "best album / songs of all time" lists), given that I've seen shows of extremely high quality from both european and russian media. (Of course, I myself am guilty of this, with respect to shows from asia and the middle east, for instance, which I've seen nothing of. It seems as though most westerners will consume media of the following categories: either american, or from their country, with at most a handful of what could be considered for them, a "foreign" show.) as I feel like tv in general seems to be a medium in which americans don't tend to really stray beyond looking at what's produced by their country, unlike say, films, where, perhaps because of the more "high-class" sentiment that comes with being a cinephile, there's a stronger push to look beyond the borders in an effort to stay informed and "cultured" about films around the world.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by hardwaregeek on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:59PM (#25530288)
People rightfully discuss the wonderful themes, the memorable characters, the tragic arcs in The Wire, but one area they underrate is the form. I recently watched some of the HD restoration and the use of sound and image is really wonderful.

I suspect a lot of it flies under the radar because The Wire purposefully used a style that wasn't overly pretty, was closer to verite than visually stunning. But there's some great ideas there. The utter commitment to diagetic sound (barring one scene in the first season). The use of complex camera movements and an Altman-esque zoom to provide a documentary or even voyeuristic perspective.

You could make an argument that The Wire is more innovative in filmmaking than a lot of the typical prestige TV, who simply mimicked Hollywood big budget artistry.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by georgebcrawford on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:33PM (#25532631)
> barring one scene in the first season

Yes! Was that the one where Avon, String, and Stinkum arrive with the cash bonuses? I am rewatching a third time right now and couldn't figure out why it stood out as somewhat clumsy. It even popped into my head while I was driving yesterday. You've just reminded me, so thank you.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by hardwaregeek on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:38AM (#25534479)
Yep! It's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpUHa2rCWeA

There's also the end of season montages, but I'm a lot more forgiving towards non-diegetic music for montages

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by jdeibele on Thursday December 24, 2020 @02:43PM (#25530744)
The Wire: Way Down in the Hole is a podcast that talks about each episode of The Wire. The hosts are Jemele Hill and Van Lathan.

Some of the background they give is that the cast and crew didn't think there would be a Season 2, that David Simon wrote Season 5 without Dennis Lehane or George Pelecanos, etc.

https://www.theringer.com/way-down-in-the-hole Now that The Ringer has been bought by Spotify you might have to be a subscriber to listen to it.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by ystad on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:26AM (#25528238)
The Wire does live up to it's hype.

Keep going beyond the second season, it gets better, when the lines between the gangs and the government blur

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by patrickthebold on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:42AM (#25528422)
It's very good, but the last season gets a little weird with the 'serial murder'.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by peteretep on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:15AM (#25528745)
We need to get better as a species at pretending certain seasons didn’t happen. Season 5 of The Wire, Season 3 of Homeland, anything after All Along the Watchtower in BSG etc
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by ska on Thursday December 24, 2020 @02:47PM (#25530780)
The thing about season 5 is that it doesn't stand up well to the other seasons, but it does stand up reasonably to most other television; I'm not sure it's quite in this category.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by ra7 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @12:53PM (#25529689)
> Season 3 of Homeland

Oh, what a downer that season was. On the other hand, Homeland Season 1 was one of the best bits of television I’ve seen.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by kenjackson on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:33PM (#25531157)
The last season of Homeland I thought was incredible. It felt like everything pushed to the extreme. Overall great show.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by peteretep on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:10PM (#25533261)
Honestly I just skipped it having seen the IMDB reviews. I’ve watched all the others and it’s one of my favourite shows.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by albedoa on Thursday December 24, 2020 @02:23PM (#25530535)
"Community" made their lost season part of the show's lore by having the characters refer to it as "The Gas Leak Year": https://screenrant.com/community-season-4-gas-leak-year-expl...
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by klenwell on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:24PM (#25531077)
I like the last season. I thought it was a comic masterpiece (darkly comic) and a master class in all sorts of irony. Maybe that's the rub. Still, these two scenes are gems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn0ylNZhOJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2-NkZ8lGsA

And it's still consistent with the "institutional ineptitude of conservative western cultures" (as @ddek puts it above) theme.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by meowface on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:06PM (#25530955)
One of the main writers left before season 5, which might explain it.

It's disappointing, because the season's focus on journalism and public optics was really interesting and educational and in many ways well-executed. But the serial murder stuff just made it kind of goofy.

Seasons 1 - 4 are so good that it's not a big deal, but it seems so rare that multi-season shows stick a graceful landing.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by m-ee on Thursday December 24, 2020 @12:50PM (#25529669)
Yeah it lost believability there, felt like David Simon’s personal grudges against the Sun we’re getting in the way of the story.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by meowzero on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:31AM (#25528905)
The last season brings the whole series down IMO. But in a way, it was almost meant to be for the last season to be worse than the others. It was almost fitting based on its themes.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by mjklin on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:24AM (#25528221)
A good companion piece is Stanley Kubrick’s Paths of Glory, which gave David Simon much of his inspiration for The Wire. Excellent film.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by wespiser_2018 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:28AM (#25528271)
Paths of Glory is one of my favorite films, after hearing David Simon speak about how it's essentially a movie about middle management and the dangers of being giving a task that's impossible to complete yet will still let down the people who look up to you!
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by op03 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:26PM (#25534189)
Much better than movies or shows on the subject is Herbert Simon's work on Administrative Behavior. Unlike David Simon's work it gives people a way to think about problems and approaches to problems where their skills, resources, rationality aren't enough - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_A._Simon
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by misiti3780 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:02PM (#25529764)
Also -- for anyone here that loved The Wire, I really recommend Treme. It is almost as good, just more about musicians than drugs. Writing and story lines are the same David Simon-esque style.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by beervirus on Thursday December 24, 2020 @12:19PM (#25529357)
> I'd tried to watch it a few times, but only a few months ago actually got past the first two episodes.

I did the same thing, and I'm not sure why. The first couple episodes are fine in retrospect, but at the time... I just couldn't get into them and couldn't keep the characters straight. When I finally did get over that hump though, it turned out to be one of my all-time favorite series.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by trianglem on Thursday December 24, 2020 @03:07PM (#25530963)
The wire is art. I don’t have enough superlatives for it. I’m only sad that something so good and timeless will portray black people so poorly. I don’t mean the art portraying them poorly, I mean their literal state of being.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by georgebcrawford on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:42PM (#25532704)
Surely that's part of its power though? The real-life facts of that existence are tragic of course, but shining a light on the issues is surely a positive thing.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by trianglem on Thursday December 24, 2020 @08:48PM (#25533474)
Yeah it’s positive if it leads to change that helps the situation. But I’m also an advocate of forget to move on and beautiful art like that doesn’t let you forget.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by bigmattystyles on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:59PM (#25534068)
Even though it’s starting to show its age, it is still amazing. Pagers died such a quick death. The code/code cracking they use in the show seems almost quaint and innocent now. I would assume the level of sophistication has also exploded within criminal gangs. I also remember doing a double take when I first heard Dominic West and Idris Elba speak with their actual British accents. Stringer Bell is English!? He should have been Bond, I fear he’s aged out now.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by kyleblarson on Thursday December 24, 2020 @05:28PM (#25532091)
If you liked The Wire and haven't yet, definitely check out The Sopranos. Absolutely amazing.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by georgebcrawford on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:40PM (#25532682)
Years ago I read that The Wire made The Sopranos look...silly? Or at least not as serious and gritty. I kind of agreed for awhile, but I'm actually rewatching both and appreciate the different styles more. One thing that strikes me is the acting - The Sopranos is filled with amazing performances, particularly the dynamic between Edie Falco and James Gandolfini. I hate Tony Soprano and really dislike Carmella, but I'm so conflicted about both.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by misiti3780 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:01PM (#25529749)
The Wire is amazing television for sure, but the last season kinda sucked. I know that they were forced to end it early because HBO cut it short, but I thought the whole serial killer story line just didn't add up.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by gautamcgoel on Thursday December 24, 2020 @10:23PM (#25533911)
Great show. My two favorite scenes are probably the death of Prop Joe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ca4WeMd2MQ) and the death of Wallace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hor_gOBU_GU).
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by sizzle on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:27PM (#25534193)
The wire absolutely blew my mind and raised the bar on how great television can be. I have trouble getting past the first few episodes of Game of Thrones, how does it stack up to The Wire in terms of sucking you into the storyline and committing, looking forward to each new episode and pondering over episodes during your day to day like I experienced with The Wire?
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by mercer on Monday January 04, 2021 @08:55AM (#25631337)
I'd say most shows fall short of The Wire. Game of Thrones was /good/ for the first three seasons or so, then got worse and worse. The last season, in my opinion, is so bad that in hindsight I wish I hadn't watched the entire show.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by briandilley on Thursday December 24, 2020 @07:12PM (#25532906)
> morally ambiguous discussion of the institutional ineptitude of conservative western cultures in mitigating the effects of crime, rather than a typical 'good vs bad' cop show.

That's a mouthful.

Basically you're saying that the cops operated questionably due to or because of the conservative government's inability to effectively fight crime?

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by ddek on Friday December 25, 2020 @04:17AM (#25535315)
Yeah I just combined an unrelated set of feelings into a single sentence.

> morally ambiguous

No character (save some in S5) is totally black or white. Take Omar, for example. When Omar responds to Levy in the S2 courtroom scene, we sympathise with Omar. When Bunk applies almost exactly the same criticism in S3, we don’t.

> institutional ineptitude

The show covers more institutions than just the BPD. S2 covers traditional economics, S3 has politics, S4 education, and S5 media.

> conservative western cultures

I kinda wanted to say ‘America’ here, but that wouldn’t entirely be true. I’m from Glasgow, a city which has been directly compared to the Wire’s version of Baltimore. Look up the ice cream wars.

These problems aren’t uniquely America’s, but are inherent to all (small c) conservative western cultures. Parts of Europe (Scandinavia, Netherlands) have made huge progress through progressive policy. This isn’t an issue of which government is in power - the US had 8 years of Obama, the UK had 13 of Blair/Brown, and made no progress.

> mitigating the effects of crime

The true victims of the drug trade are the bystanders. However, the war on drugs is fought through virtuous motivation - drugs are bad, impure, and destroy people and society. This motivation omits those most affected by the drug trade, the bystanders. Between street dealing, turf wars, and aggressive policing; the drug trade devastates communities.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by glial on Thursday December 24, 2020 @09:45PM (#25533738)
I think it’s more that the worldview held by western institutions and police in particular does not equip police to actually solve the problems they are trying to solve - through no real fault of the individuals involved.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by house9-2 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:28PM (#25529984)
One of my favorites from HBO.

The first time I watched it the first few episodes felt a little weak (like a network tv cop show), almost gave up on it but glad I didn't.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by dan1234 on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:38AM (#25528966)
The Wire does live up to its hype, but I think The Shield is the better series.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by totemandtoken on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:35PM (#25530072)
I respectfully disagree. The writing on the Shield was good but kind of amateur compared to the Wire. I really want to like Kurt Sutter, and often I do, but he doesn't hold a candle to Simon and the rest of the writers on the Wire. The Shield had some really good socially aware arcs (the asset forfeiture season comes to mind) but even those pale compared to the whole Wire philosophy of institutions as Greek gods in a Greek tragedy. Also the pray-the-gay-away subplot in the Shield has not aged well.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by darod on Thursday December 24, 2020 @12:12PM (#25529289)
I watched the Wire after The Shield and it was hard not to fall asleep. It was so slow in comparison. I understand art imitating reality but they really kill the pace with some of these stake out scenes.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by paulnechifor on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:17AM (#25528775)
I started watching The Wire recently expecting a very dry show that's difficult to understand but I found it gripping from the start. The characters felt real and the world very fucked up and interesting.

Season 2 was good, but I didn't understand why they kept the drug dealers plot on ice. It seemed like filler.

By season 3 it turned into every other TV show where characters are just tools used to express a story rather real people.

I stopped watching a few episodes into season 4 because I couldn't be bothered to care.

I would understand the heaps of praise The Wire gets if it were limited to season 1 (maybe 2 as well), but the reset doesn't seem that good.

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by implements on Thursday December 24, 2020 @11:57AM (#25529152)
Season 4 is arguably the best bit of television drama, ever - it’s a masterpiece.
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by _jcrossley on Thursday December 24, 2020 @06:48PM (#25532757)
Agreed, 4 is my favorite. Then maybe 2,1,3,5. Enormous fan here
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by Eric_WVGG on Thursday December 24, 2020 @12:59PM (#25529729)
I get the argument that good tv/literature/whatever shouldn't need to be explained, but I think the Wire really benefits from reading a lot of serious criticism alongside watching. There were a ton of details and ideas and motifs that just flew over my head, but upon some reading and a second watching… well I started out loving The Wire, but the second time I loved The Wire. Even seasons 3 and 4. (not 5, at least I understand what they were trying to do)
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by kazamaloo on Thursday December 24, 2020 @01:10PM (#25529829)
do you have good pointers?
Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by Eric_WVGG on Friday December 25, 2020 @03:13AM (#25535056)
It’s been a couple years so would take a while to dig it up, but the New Yorker feature on Simon would be a fine place to start https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/10/22/stealing-life

But maybe instead I can give you an example of a thing that I hadn’t noticed, but once pointed out, became my favorite thing about the show: the first scene of the first episode of each season is an encapsulation of that whole season’s theme.

(Spoiler) in the first scene of the whole series, McNulty is asking a street kid about another kid, “Snot Boogie,” who had gotten gunned down. The kid explains that their friends had an ongoing dice game, and sometimes Snot would try to steal the money that was on the table. They would chase him down and beat him and go back to the game, and the next night Snot would just do it again. McNulty is incredulous, “if he always tries to steal, why do you let him play? If you keep beating him up, why does he come back?” “You’ve got to let him play. This is America.”

It’s easy to draw the parallel between Snot and the various players of the drug trade, who all play the game, some working their way higher up the ranks than others, but inevitably being beaten down, but they keep playing because it’s the only game in town. But that’s also the cops. Half of the are crooked and the there’s no “exit” and they’re fighting a war that can’t be won. Everyone in this game is Snot Boogie.

The set-up for the second season is even better, and the scene with Snoop and that nailgun... god

I’m going to give the series another watch alongside this podcast that goes through the episodes one at a time. Haven’t listened yet so I can’t vouch, but I’m intrigued. https://overcast.fm/+Zg-euhrSU

Re:Ask HN: What Lived Up to the Hype? by rpdillon on Thursday December 24, 2020 @12:09PM (#25529265)
It may be that your opinion would change if you pushed through to the end. I liked it the entire way through, but I think it took finishing the final season for me to realize how masterful it all truly was.