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Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by godelski on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:24PM (#25510056)
This is a strange perspective to me because then that would mean that ads are only about awareness of a product. But you have to convince someone to buy your product.

Not only that, but there's much more to advertising than goods. We have advertisements for political campaigns that try to persuade voters, pubic service announcements that try to persuade people to take certain actions, religious marketing, prescription ads that tell you to ask your doctor, etc. Ads have never been about awareness but persuasion. This is even more clear when you investigate why Coke has ads or car commercials. Coke already has the market. They advertise to make you feel like you're choice was good, and you to feel good. Car companies advertise to build prestige and years later when you buy a car you have brand prestige.

It's never been about awareness, it's about selling you an idea as much as it is selling you a product.

Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by vorpalhex on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:31PM (#25510139)
This distinction doesn't seem to stand up under scrutiny.

"Shop at XYZ Pharmacy! Our prices are 5% lower than our competitors!"

That's an ad, it's persuasive, but it's also about awareness. There doesn't seem to be any moral issue with it.

Even if I replace our theoretical 5% savings with a picture of a scantily clad woman, or a group of young and happening business people, that's still persuasion - but we haven't suddenly created some moral harm.

Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by godelski on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @02:43PM (#25510267)
How about recent political ads:

Vote for X! Y is going to destroy America! <insert imagery of America being destroyed under Y>

A political ad is substantially more than awareness (which I'm not denying as being a part, I'm saying it is a small part). But this ad, like most, are there to convince you. It is still an ad.

This isn't to say that there aren't awareness based ads. There's also shitty ads run by first year film students. But these aren't what people are being bombarded with on prime time TV, in Times Square, or on popular websites. This isn't a mathematical proof where a single counter example discredits an entire thesis, because we aren't working in absolutes here. Acting like it does is arguing in bad faith. For what it is worth, the examples I gave for Coke and car commercials are taught in first year marketing courses as well as psychology courses.

Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by neolog on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @03:00PM (#25510493)
The second case is not persuasion and it is a moral harm.
Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by vorpalhex on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:02PM (#25511203)
On what basis is it a moral harm?
Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by godelski on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:19PM (#25511362)
I don't think your specific example illustrates moral harm. But there are definitely advertisers that do. We could for example say how BP spends a few million on ads to buy public good will and talking about how they are cleaning up the environment while they increase their pollution levels by expansion is morally reprehensible. Such advertising is quite common.
Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by neolog on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @04:35PM (#25511535)
A transaction is good if both parties benefit, but in this transaction I end up with a product worth less to me than I paid.
Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by TeMPOraL on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @07:07PM (#25512959)
Any extra persuasion on top of listing features and asking price is an attempt to shift the potential customers away from rational cost/benefit analysis, leading them towards making a suboptimal choice. In simpler words: it's making their lives worse.
Re:What does privacy mean under surveillance capitalism? by specialist on Tuesday December 22, 2020 @11:16PM (#25514338)
Pithy TLDR: Language is a virus.