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Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by joshuamorton on Saturday December 19, 2020 @08:47PM (#25483102)
> The economy is interconnected, but at the end of the day if the value of exported cotton produced by enslaved people is 5% of the economy, then the whole economy can't be singularly dependent on that industry.

I don't think I made such a claim. That said, this claim isn't correct. If the non-exported cotton was a key ingredient in the industries that make up the other 95% of exports (and the non-export economy), the economy would be dependent on that industry. Now I don't think that every aspect of the US economy was dependent on cotton, but textile exports, for example, wouldn't be included as cotton exports, and textiles used at home, wouldn't be either. So this metric does underestimate the economic impact of an industry.

> Second, whether the workers on the plantations are paid labor or enslaved people doesn't change the economic calculus for Eli Whitney. He sells cotton gins either way. Back then cotton could be, and was, produced by free labor. When the Civil War disrupted the American cotton industry, free labor in India and Australia and Egypt filled the market gap:

I agree. This doesn't change the core point: his fortune was built off of slave labor. There exist alternate timelines where it might not have been, but we don't live in those timelines. Trying to tease counterfactuals out of history isn't really good academics. The flow of history is complex enough that smart people can come to contradictory conclusion. Thus, what happened: the US cotton economy was built on the backs of slave labor. Anything else (even conjecture that I agree with, that the US economy would have been stronger sooner with less slavery as it was essentially a local maxima and prevented other forms of innovation) is conjecture.

Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by rayiner on Saturday December 19, 2020 @09:45PM (#25483386)
> If the non-exported cotton was a key ingredient in the industries that make up the other 95% of exports (and the non-export economy), the economy would be dependent on that industry.

Almost all US cotton production was exported, mostly to England. Also remember that at this time, the vast majority of the economy is self-sufficient farmers. My wife’s family wasn’t buying southern cotton out in Oregon. They were living off the land.

Circling back to the Jacobin article, most historians reject the idea that cotton production with slave labor was a big part of the American economy. The contrary claims come from a handful of scholars like Ed Baptist, and as shown in the link above he’s methodology is flawed and rests on double counting.

> Trying to tease counterfactuals out of history isn't really good academics.

You asserted above that immigration into the US and Silicon Valley, for example, can be said to have grown out of slavery because slavery is the source of America’s economic and industrial might. On one hand, the factual premise is false. Slavery was a small part of the economy before it was abolished. And the wealth that drew people to the country was mostly created after slavery was abolished.

Apart from that, you’re invoking a peculiar sort of causation. Someone comes to America as an immigrant and starts a company in 1970, and according to you that “grew out of slavery?” That’s a very “original sin” view of slavery, where the country is forever tainted by the fact slavery existed at one time, regardless of whether there are any traceable benefits to people living today resulting from slavery.

There is a metaphysical sense in which that is true but I don’t think most people would interpret “grew out of” that way. More important, thats not how the 1619 Project authors appear to view the causation either. That’s why they rely on this flawed article claiming that 50% of the US economy was from slavery. Their narrative depends on making slavery seem more economically significant than it was, and making people believe they derive tangible benefits from it today.

Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by joshuamorton on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:27AM (#25484081)
> Also remember that at this time, the vast majority of the economy is self-sufficient farmers

By 1850, 40% of the population was employed in non-agriculture, GDP of non-agriculture was higher. Its unclear if this number included slaves as part of the population or not, but either way that suggests that either a minority (though a plurality), or a slim majority at most, was employed in subsistence agriculture style work.

But I want to reiterate that I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, just with the line of reasoning that 5% of exports implies only a small amount of the economy.

> And the wealth that drew people to the country was mostly created after slavery was abolished.

I'm not sure I see the point here beyond "slavery was a long time ago", and given the historically exponential nature of wealth and economic growth most of it will have been acquired recently. That doesn't mean that perturbations to the initial conditions don't matter, just the opposite: their impacts will be magnified many times over.

I'll reiterate: could America have flourished without slavery? Probably (there's some questions about early America and investment in the new world without slavery, which I think the 1619 project raises, but if you start from 1776, yeah at that point United States could probably have done fine without slavery, and it's a tragedy that the founders didn't make that choice). But the founders didn't make that choice, so we're left with a United States that did have an economy dependent on slavery. And it was dependent enough on slavery that half the states were willing to fight a war over slavery (I mean also the racism and white supremacy, but economic anxiety was at least one component even then).

> That’s a very “original sin” view of slavery, where the country is forever tainted by the fact slavery existed at one time, regardless of whether there are any traceable benefits to people living today resulting from slavery.

But, like, there are. I mean you've admitted as much with things like the wealth gap. A significant portion of the white/black wealth gap in the US can be traced back to slavery (and a lot of the rest of it to racist policies since then, some of which still exist today). That's a tangible benefit.

I'm willing to concede that the 1619 project is perhaps to focused on slavery specifically, and might better be phrased as "the US was founded on white supremacist principles that continue to exist and benefit many of its citizens at the expense of others, even today, with slavery as but one of the most visible," but I get the feeling you'd object to that also.

And those kinds of policies do influence the kinds of people we let immigrate, and who gets VC funding, and who gets hired, and and and.

As for "original sin", I think drawing attention to broken systems is important, especially those systems we hold in extremely high regard. The aura around the US as the city on a hill or whatever that people like to push tries to absolve people of responsibility to fix broken systems, either by pretending that there are no problems now, or that there never were any problems to begin with.

Yeah sure, an immigrant who came here in the 70s didn't contribute to the creation of slavery and the systems that grew out of it, but as long as those systems persist, they'll be the beneficiaries (or victims, depending) of those systems. And yeah, some of those systems run deep in the American ethos.

Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by DiogenesKynikos on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:16PM (#25487774)
> might better be phrased as "the US was founded on white supremacist principles that continue to exist and benefit many of its citizens at the expense of others, even today, with slavery as but one of the most visible," but I get the feeling you'd object to that also.

I would certainly object to it, as would most historians, I think.

The principles the US was founded on - that is, the principles that drove the colonies to declare independence from Britain and the unique ideas about government that they incorporated into the state constitutions (and eventually the federal Constitution) were not "white supremacist." Most of the world practiced slavery at the time. The empire they were breaking away from was the #1 slave-trading nation in the world at that time. Slavery was a pre-existing fact when the United States was founded. It wasn't the motivation for the founding.

In fact, at the time, the principles of the revolution were widely regarded as being in conflict with slavery, which is why the United States became one of the first centers of anti-slavery activism in the world. And it's why the northern states became some of the first places in the world to abolish slavery. Even slaveowners in Virginia began questioning slavery at this time. Jefferson, despite his own ownership of slaves, wrote the clause that forbade slavery in the Northwest Territories, and even proposed a new constitution for Virginia that would have freed anyone born after 31 December 1800. This was extremely early, in an international perspective, in the global anti-slavery movement. Britain wouldn't ban slavery until the 1830s.

When later Southern leaders tried to defend slavery, they found the founding principles to be an embarrassing stumbling block. The famous Cornerstone Speech, given by the vice president of the Confederacy, was very self-consciously formulated as a repudiation of the Declaration of Independence, replacing "all men are created equal" with a new supposed "great truth" that people are created unequal. From the "Cornerstone Speech":

> The prevailing ideas entertained by him [Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. [...] Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong.

The fact that the American Revolution did not eliminate slavery does not mean that the principles of the revolution were white supremacist, any more than Athenian democracy's founding principle was mysogeny, because Athens didn't overturn male-dominated society. The American revolution took a society that already had slavery, servitude, etc., and introduced new democratic principles, abolished many forms of servitude, generated opposition to slavery and outlawed slavery in half the new country. Slavery was not something the revolution introduced or ideologically strengthened. Quite the opposite.

Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by rayiner on Sunday December 20, 2020 @01:47PM (#25488537)
Precisely. And you highlight the problem with judging history by current moral standards. That collapses history in on itself and it becomes impossible to even understand what happened.

The cornerstone speech illustrates how the principles embodies in the constitution weren’t just some platitude but were in fact disputed. Other parts of the cornerstone speech are especially illuminating:

> Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.... Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics.

The Confederacy attacked the founders as zealots and fanatics who didn’t accept the “scientific fact” of inequality of the races. Such thinking would persist well into the 20th century with eugenicists promoting scientific racism. Even today, the idea that everyone is created equal—even as an idea, forget about the implantation—is not universally accepted, especially outside the west.

Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by joshuamorton on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:55PM (#25491394)
> Most of the world practiced slavery at the time. The empire they were breaking away from was the #1 slave-trading nation in the world at that time. Slavery was a pre-existing fact when the United States was founded. It wasn't the motivation for the founding.

And "The US was founded on white supremacist principles" can both simultaneously be true.

> Even slaveowners in Virginia began questioning slavery at this time. Jefferson, despite his own ownership of slaves, wrote the clause that forbade slavery in the Northwest Territories, and even proposed a new constitution for Virginia that would have freed anyone born after 31 December 1800. This was extremely early, in an international perspective, in the global anti-slavery movement. Britain wouldn't ban slavery until the 1830s.

Sort of, some antislavery sentiment in the UK predates the revolution. In 1772, slavery was ruled to be prohibited in England under English common law. It was still allowed in British colonies, but calling any founder a "leader" in this regard doesn't hold up to scrutiny. No law needed to be passed banning slavery in England, because it was already illegal prior to the founding of the US. The 1930 law you cite banned slavery in British colonies, but it had already been illegal in England for 60 years, and the slave trade was made illegal in 1807. In other words, in every aspect (partial abolition, total abolition, etc.) the UK led the US.

Article 1, Section 9 of the US constitution likely delayed that British law (the US and UK banned the slave trade simultaneously). Are you really going to tell me that Article 1, Section 9 isn't white supremacist? It literally prohibits the government from banning the slave trade until 1808.

Re:New York Times retracts core of podcast series ‘Caliphate’ by DiogenesKynikos on Monday December 21, 2020 @05:56AM (#25493785)
> but calling any founder a "leader" in this regard doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Many were far ahead of the general sentiment of the time on slavery.

> In 1772, slavery was ruled to be prohibited in England under English common law.

The ruling was narrower than that. Strictly speaking, it said that slaves could not be taken from England to the colonies against their will. There were similar "freedom suits" occurring in the colonies at the time. However, the anti-slavery movement on both sides of the Atlantic was small at this time. Slave-owning interests in Britain had far more power in government than the small anti-slavery movement. Their plantations were in the West Indies, which the 1772 ruling had no impact on. In its most expansive possible interpretation (which was not the interpretation that Lord Mansfield, the judge, took), the 1772 ruling affected a relatively small number of slaves in England who worked as domestic servants. It didn't affect the massive plantations in the colonies, many owned by the English aristocracy, where the real economic interest lay.

> In other words, in every aspect (partial abolition, total abolition, etc.) the UK led the US.

This isn't a competition, but to paint Britain as an anti-slavery power at the time of the revolution would be absurd. In the run-up to the revolution, Britain vetoed even limited attempts by American colonies to constrain the slave trade. Virginia, for example, attempted to tax the slave trade out of existence in the early 1770s, only to find its law vetoed by the Crown. In general, the British and American anti-slavery movements were in close contact and fed off one another. The American Revolution, and the wave of anti-slavery acts across the northern states, are generally seen as having strengthened the British anti-slavery movement.

> Article 1, Section 9 of the US constitution likely delayed that British law (the US and UK banned the slave trade simultaneously). Are you really going to tell me that Article 1, Section 9 isn't white supremacist? It literally prohibits the government from banning the slave trade until 1808.

It was a result of a compromise between pro- and anti-slavery forces. It was widely understood that that provision put an expiration date on the slave trade. In other words, it can equally be viewed as an anti-slavery measure, delayed by 20 years in order to appease South Carolina. Long before the federal ban on the slave trade went into effect in 1808, however, every state except for South Carolina banned the trade.