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A comment on Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO. Parent comment

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by hn_throwaway_99 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:41AM (#25456538)
Again, I'm not really trying to defend Google one way or the other. At the end of the day it seemed like Gebru published a paper that was quite critical of how Google intends to make a sizable portion of their revenue, and anyone should understand that when you do that in a large company, it's going to get extra scrutiny. And it could very well be that the whole purpose of Google's "ethical AI" team in the first place is to just provide a "veneer of morality" over what are some fairly unnerving practices and consequences of AI. But regardless, the honorable thing then for anyone on that team is to simply resign, say that "I don't agree with Google's values", and find someplace else to do your work (it's not like these people couldn't get highly paid jobs elsewhere). Instead they're throwing tantrums.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by panpanna on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:02AM (#25456765)
So basically Gebru was fired for turning Googles fake ethics group into a real ethics group?
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by googlethrow3134 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:28AM (#25457052)
She wasn’t fired for trying to publish the paper.

She threatened to resign if her demands were met, so Google pre-empted it by accepting her resignation.

The narrative around her being “fired” is completely false and is a lie that needs to be stopped in its track.

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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by baron_harkonnen on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:49AM (#25457304)
So do you honestly believe that if Gebru were to interview at another company and they performed a background check asking why her last position was terminated if she put "voluntary" it would come back with no problems?

Do you likewise honestly think that if she applied for unemployment services in the US should we be denied because of willful termination from her last job?

Everyone I know who has been fired, when it's reported to the company, the phrasing is always "Person X and the company have come to a mutual agreement", but in my experience it's never really mutual.

I've known many coworkers that threaten to quit over issues, but it still depends on them making that choice formally. Otherwise they are fired.

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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by cbozeman on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:06AM (#25456815)
Well, its like HR. The Ethics group is there to shield the company, not the customer. Apparently she didn't understand that.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by free_rms on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:48AM (#25457287)
It's fascinating how nobody can say how this paper was such an ethical stab in the heart for Google, it's all about process.

The paper's out there! You can read it!

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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by dannyw on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:42AM (#25457206)
Maybe we live in completely different worldviews, but an academic on an Ethical AI team’s primary obligation should be academic honest and integrity.

If the truth damages the company, then that is the company’s fault, not the academic’s fault.

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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by woah on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:27AM (#25457031)
Google claims to be a place where academics can do research. Censoring a critical paper goes against that. I’m not a fan of Timnit, but in this case she is right to make a stink. It’s not like her job was to write ad copy.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by xvedejas on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:58AM (#25457407)
Is "having standards for what Google pursues for publications" really censorship? I think we'd need additional evidence to say so. If this isn't the first paper Google has stopped when an internal anonymous reviewer gives the red light, it sounds like they're just following their own process for quality control. Maybe the debate should be whether it is the best process for quality control.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by pron on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:21AM (#25456969)
Wouldn't the honourable thing be to first try to change how Google behaves and only if unsuccessful resign? Why is the assumption that employees shouldn't even try to influence the direction of their company? Why is doing so considered a tantrum?
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by throwaway316943 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:46AM (#25457269)
There is a huge difference between skillfully navigating the internal politics and procedures of a company vs issuing demands based on flimsy evidence/feelings and threatening to take your toys and go home if you don’t get your way (and then throwing a social media tantrum when they call your bluff and accept your resignation).
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by pron on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:49AM (#25457305)
Sure, and maybe they misjudged their power and overplayed their hand, but why is it that the law is the only guidance for management while employees are held up to a higher standard? If management can do anything as long as it's legal, so can the workers.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by throwaway316943 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @01:01PM (#25458224)
A corporation is not obligated to keep you employed nor should they be outside of a legal contract. I’d prefer it stays that way because I don’t want to be compelled to work for anyone or have them be compelled to hire me. They’re two sides of the same coin.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by pron on Thursday December 17, 2020 @01:50PM (#25458843)
They are two sides of the same coin, but the law in some countries recognises that the employer has more power, and so favours the worker and makes it harder for the employer to terminate an employee without making it harder for the employee to quit.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by throwaway316943 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @04:21PM (#25460616)
Making it harder to fire someone makes it harder to hire them in the first place. This hurts everyone because it reduces the number of available positions by increasing the cost of hiring. Give too much power to the employees and you wind up with corrupt unions that effectively have a cartel over entire areas of the economy. It’s just layers of red tape and misery for everyone. Getting fired isn’ta problem if you can easily get a new job. It becomes a problem when nobody wants to hire because they can never get rid of you or they have to deal with a crooked union. Having high barriers to firing people also makes the fact that you got fired a giant stain on your resume instead of a fairly normal occurrence that could be due to a no fault reason.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by pron on Saturday December 19, 2020 @07:02AM (#25476901)
Such systems are sensitive to multiple variable, and it's not true that all values except from the current ones lead to a worse result, or, at least, we have no reason to believe that's true. What we do know is that over the past several decades the US, and other Western countries, and especially in the past two, have conducted a massive redistribution of wealth away from workers.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by geodel on Thursday December 17, 2020 @01:40PM (#25458720)
Huh, last time it was contractor treatment issue. Make a show of protest and then get back to desk at work. I wish these world leading AI ethics researchers show some ethical spine and at least go on strike if not resign until management come to talking table and meet their partial and full demands.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by microtherion on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:46AM (#25457262)
> first try to change how Google behaves

By, say, attempting to publish papers and have internal discussions about it?

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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by pron on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:00PM (#25457434)
I don't have all the facts here and neither, I believe, do you, and we don't know what recourses have been tried. My point is just that I find strange the view that the company is entitled to do anything as long as it's legal while employees aren't, and are expected to either leave or stay and shut up.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by microtherion on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:10PM (#25457531)
I think we're entirely in agreement on this. I would say that in all jobs, it's more honorable to first try to change the company rather than quit silently, but if your job description encompasses "ethics" or "compliance", it's pretty much a dereliction of duty to quit without even trying to change policies one finds wrong.
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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by Nullabillity on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:17AM (#25456937)
The "honorable thing to do" would be to let them window-shop until they find someone willing to rubberstamp whatever they want?
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