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Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by uh_uh on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:31AM (#25456427)
Didn't they push back on the publication because the paper was lacking in certain regards? IIRC it failed to take into account relevant recent papers, for example. Which probably could have been fixed if they didn't submit as late as they did.
Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by GVIrish on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:40AM (#25456518)
The paper was submitted on time, other papers at Google were submitted for review after they were released. By Jeff Dean's own admission the paper was approved for release.

The demand for retraction was initially given while refusing to state what the reason(s) for the demand were. Only after the meeting where they demanded she retract the paper did they belatedly agree to read her the feedback that they stated as the reason. They wouldn't even let her read it first hand.

Ultimately it seems like Google could have plainly stated their issues with the paper from the start, and that said issues were not so serious that they merited a demand for retraction.

There are a number of things that just don't add up. Even if you take it at face value that Gebru's ultimatum demands were unreasonable, there are several problems with how the situation got to that point in the first place.

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by uh_uh on Thursday December 17, 2020 @10:58AM (#25456718)
Excerpt from Jeff Dean's email:

> Timnit co-authored a paper with four fellow Googlers as well as some external collaborators that needed to go through our review process (as is the case with all externally submitted papers). We’ve approved dozens of papers that Timnit and/or the other Googlers have authored and then published, but as you know, papers often require changes during the internal review process (or are even deemed unsuitable for submission). Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted.

> A cross functional team then reviewed the paper as part of our regular process and the authors were informed that it didn’t meet our bar for publication and were given feedback about why. It ignored too much relevant research — for example, it talked about the environmental impact of large models, but disregarded subsequent research showing much greater efficiencies. Similarly, it raised concerns about bias in language models, but didn’t take into account recent research to mitigate these issues. We acknowledge that the authors were extremely disappointed with the decision that Megan and I ultimately made, especially as they’d already submitted the paper.

I'm curious: why is ignoring too much relevant research not a good reason to demand retraction? Isn't this one of the most common embarrassing mistakes that inexperienced researchers tend to make? I can fully understand if Google does not want to associate itself with work that might be viewed by the wider research community as shoddy.

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by GVIrish on Thursday December 17, 2020 @01:31PM (#25458586)
> I'm curious: why is ignoring too much relevant research not a good reason to demand retraction? Isn't this one of the most common embarrassing mistakes that inexperienced researchers tend to make? I can fully understand if Google does not want to associate itself with work that might be viewed by the wider research community as shoddy.

For starters if the academic content of the paper were shoddy, that is what peer review is for. Secondly, if it was really about the paper lacking some new context, why did Google demand retraction while refusing to share why? That's what doesn't make sense.

It seems like there's some missing context in the situation because on the surface Google's actions don't line up with their stated reasoning.

Notice how in Jeff Dean's email he made no reference to the fact that they refused to share the reasons for the retraction with Gebru in that first meeting. He also skipped over where Gebru asked for the reasoning and a manager read it to her rather than letting her read for herself.

I just don't understand the secrecy and cageyness if the only problem with the paper was some academic omissions.

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by tomdell on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:07AM (#25456839)
That claim by Jeff Dean has been more or less debunked. The real reason that Google demanded the paper not be published is that it is critical of models underlying the company’s fundamental business - the whole message from Jeff Dean is very misleading and states a bunch of other, unrelated things as the “real reason”.
Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by zaroth on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:18AM (#25456943)
It would be very helpful to point to sources for the claim that Jeff Dean's explanation is debunked, rather than just claiming it has been.

The timing of the submission for review, and the deadline for submission to publication seems like a simple factual statement that should be easily demonstrated as true or false.

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by pseudalopex on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:58PM (#25462147)
Several Google employees said it wasn't the regular process.[1][2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25309488

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25309379

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by hnuser123456 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:42AM (#25457202)
AI is far more energy efficient than creating the incalcuable number of human programmers required to directly program the same solutions. Writing NLP code with non-ML methods, to the same level of quality, would be essentially impossible without an operation on the scale of warfare.

Even with the efficiency benefits that it already has, we all know ML still stands to be further optimized, and a lot of people are working on it.

Comparing the exponential increase of "intelligence" of computers versus our own, computers will be as smart as humans with similar energy efficiency in around 50 years, and they require no cars, food, etc. It will be hard to criticize the efficiency of ML when it is already moreso than our biological selves, but it will be done, and we will be wholly outsmarted.

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by uh_uh on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:19AM (#25456955)
Debunked by whom?
Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by red_admiral on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:36AM (#25457147)
I'm not sure what did or did happen in this case, but I've reviewed enough papers and seen enough of my own reviewed that I know "failed to take into account relevant recent papers" is one of many ways a reviewer who wants to shoot a paper down for BS reasons can use.

To be clear, reading that reason in a negative review can mean at least two things, and I'm not judging which of the two happened here:

1. The paper did fail to take into account the results in some highly relevant and widely cited papers. (I've rejected papers claiming new results myself before now with "this problem was in fact already solved by X, published in Y".)

2. The paper was fine, but it didn't cite every paper published recently on the topic ever, and someone used that to shoot it down for whatever BS reason. Matt Might calls these reviewers snipers: http://matt.might.net/articles/peer-fortress/

Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by woah on Thursday December 17, 2020 @11:31AM (#25457082)
According to current and former Google employees on various machine learning forums, Google does not do an academic review on their employee’s papers. That is the job of the journal reviewers. Google usually just checks whether any proprietary IP has accidentally made it in. For them to claim anything different is comically dishonest.
Re:Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it send... by Nimitz14 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:32PM (#25457814)
Not true, see christian's tweet. It's also obvious that a paper like this one will receive more scrutiny than a technical one.