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Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @12:44PM (#25445637)
Most reasonable people that asked for lockdowns also asked for stimulus packages to give those people who couldn't work money while they're out of work so they could survive.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:43PM (#25446561)
And other reasonable people are concerned with the side effects of printing 3+ trillion dollars
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:55PM (#25446737)
A very frustrating thing with this statement is that it's very arguable that financing the survival of this country's citizens during a lockdown is _exactly_ the sort of thing the government should be doing, as well as minimizing the duration of the lockdown. It enables the status quo to return quickly and minimizes the change to the social fabric. Those are things I would have imagined conservatives would want: stability.

It's very strange that we couldn't move money around and hadn't been saving money "for a rainy day" exactly like this one.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:08PM (#25446957)
As I understand it, we have no saved money, we are just going deeper into debt. In 2020 alone we took on at least 4T of debt when in past years we only take on ~1T debt per year. And all we have to show for 2T was a "woefully inadequate" $1000 check. In order to pay everyone's rent for a year, we would need at least 12x as much, in other words a cool 24 Trillion which would more than double the entire debt the US current has. And for what? To save a few lives, the majority of whom will be dead before 2030 anyway? Mask and social distancing are huge low cost public health wins, no doubt, but suggesting going 24 trillion dollars into debt to save more lives is a huge red flag to me and I would push back.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:13PM (#25447062)
In a very real sense, what more have the "lockdowns" in the US been than "masks and social distancing"?

In places where "social distancing" minimums have been impossible, the places have closed.

I'm in one of the most strict places in the entire United States, but I can still go to most every store I want, including hair salons. I'm only barred from places where there's a LOT of breathing (gym, church with singing), tight confines where social distancing can't be done (bars, restaurants) or staying in a singular location for a long time (church, clubs, sporting events).

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:22PM (#25447189)
> what more have the "lockdowns" in the US been than "masks and social distancing"?

Destruction of the service industries? Educational handicaps on multiple generations of students?

My point is that it's cheap to wear a mask and socially distance yourself while otherwise carrying on with life. It's extremely expensive on society to force everyone to stay home as much as possible and avoid certain businesses. It's expensive because it pushes the country more rapidly into debt, it pushes millions into poverty, it drives up suicide rates, and dozens more second and third order effects we won't find out about until the coming years.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:44PM (#25447498)
I would put schools under "places you can't reasonably social distance".

That's why online school has been such a common thing; but, the United States isn't very good at it, and we haven't built out the appropriate social support structures and patterns (and have gone against those patterns in many cases), so it hasn't been especially viable.

Remote learning was considered better than cancelling school altogether; but, then we ran into the problem of parents and children working and going to school in the same place and that came with its own burdens.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:12PM (#25447896)
> Remote learning was considered better than cancelling school altogether

But did we give enough thought to the third possibility? Just sending them to school normally with masks, periodically testing everyone, and contact tracing anyone who tests positive? Young people are surprisingly resilient to the disease, really just the teachers need to take extra precautions.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:16PM (#25447947)
I admit that I know a teacher in that predicament in a school district that's been actively hiding their covid infection rate (fake testing, ignoring symptomatic children, etc) and several other of my family members are teachers working in hybrid situations, so I'm having a bit of trouble responding to this usefully as I know and hear from a teacher actively in harm's way.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by ryfia on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:34PM (#25447369)
I don't think the math is quite right on this.

Assuming there are 200,000,000 people in the US over the age of 18, and assuming that each of them gets $1000/month for 12 months, we have 200,000,000 * 1000 * 12 = 2.4 Trillion, which is similar to what we actually spent. The problem is, instead of uniformly distributing that 2.4 trillion among our citizens, we added complexity (and waste due to overhead) by giving money to special interests (airlines for example) and big businesses in various ways.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:38PM (#25447426)
Yeah, I just multiplied CARES by 12 to get my number. I'm assuming you don't want to just let all the airline companies crash and burn along with all the restaurants, gyms, etc. Because then after the 12 months are up you find that millions are out of jobs and need another 12 months of rent while they look for new jobs, etc.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:47PM (#25447544)
This pandemic is getting to all of us, for sure; and, I'm definitely one of the first to notice in myself when I'm being this way, but is there a way this could be reworded so it doesn't have the bite to it that I'm perceiving in it?

I perceive the "I'm assuming you don't want ..." part as incredibly sarcastic and belittling, as though you're putting yourself on a pedestal of knowledge and belittling your fellows having a conversation.

I know I've not been the most polite in many of these conversations; and I need to work on that, too; but, perhaps you haven't noticed it and I wanted to bring it to your attention so you don't snap at people and in conversations that actually matter.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:03PM (#25447781)
Didn't intend to be sarcastic or biting at all. "I assume you don't want" was meant to mean "I'm assume we (collectively) don't want...". Basically, was just trying to say if we only give people rent money and ignore all businesses/let them crash and burn then that 2.4T will not be enough because now all the people that used to work for the companies that are now gone have no work.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:41PM (#25448289)
> To save a few lives, the majority of whom will be dead before 2030 anyway?

The majority of whom were already older than the average life expectancy. We'll see excess deaths this year, but are going to see a shortfall for the next few after that.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by neuland on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:07PM (#25445945)
And yet they didn't stop the lockdowns once it was clear the stimulus was not going to happen.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:28PM (#25446285)
Given a virus that requires hospitalization at a certain rate, there is a certain point where the hospitals end up overrun for all other activities.

In an effort to stave off that danger, local governments enacted lockdowns with the intent of reducing the spread of the virus.

The virus, in the United States, has an established death rate of around 1.5% and a hospitalization rate higher than that.

It also experiences exponential growth.

Our hospitals didn't have the capacity to handle all the _potential_ load; and, once they're approaching that capacity, it's already too late and they'll blow past it. That's the danger of exponential growth.

Let's imagine doublings:

1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128.

If total capacity is 100, the moment that capacity is less than 20% used up, we're 2-3 timesteps away from using over 100%. It is a very dangerous gamble, and controversial decisions are made or not made and the worst part is that, when you do the safe thing, you have no way of being certain or explaining that the bad thing would have or could have happened, because "it's only 20%" and that looks small.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:56PM (#25447693)
The established death rate in the US is nowhere near 1.5%. Best current population IFR estimate is somewhere in the 0.6% range. That's bad enough, no need to exaggerate. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.11.20209627v...
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:52PM (#25449878)
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nradov on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:17PM (#25450121)
No, you were. Please stop spreading misinformation about a serious subject. You appear to have confused case fatality rate with the population infection fatality rate. CFR is largely meaningless because so many infections are never counted. Look at the results from antibody seroprevalence studies.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by neuland on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:35PM (#25446398)
Florida, Texas, and Sweden seem to be doing fine.

Edit: also, the military, FEMA, and non-profits built temporary hospitals in spring, but they weren't needed.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:38PM (#25446456)
We had months and months to build temporary hospitals... Why didn't we?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:48PM (#25446636)
We, in many places, did.

Federally, there was no strategy because federal powers were devoted to promoting the pandemic (e.g., via the Defense Production Act invocation to shield the meat packing industry from state safety efforts) rather than fighting it.

OTOH, hospitals also require skilled staff, which takes longer to build.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by matthewmacleod on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:40PM (#25446499)
Who were you planning to staff all of your temporary hospitals with?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:50PM (#25446665)
So you are saying our hospital beds and staff are fixed immutable resources and that in an emergency all other variables must be sacrificed in order to not exceed those fixed immutable resources?
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nobody9999 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:17PM (#25447110)
> So you are saying our hospital beds and staff are fixed immutable resources and that in an emergency all other variables must be sacrificed in order to not exceed those fixed immutable resources?

Absolutely. Steve the UberEats delivery driver can be moved into the ICU, putting folks on ventilators and providing critical care in a week or so, right?

And Gustavo, the busboy can be out providing EMT services in just a few days, right?

A doctor requires 8+ years of post-secondary education, in addition to several years of on-the-job training.

An RN requires at least 6+ years of post-secondary education, plus several years of on-the-job training. LPNs even longer.

So, yes. In the short term (~6-18 months), staff are most certainly fairly fixed resources.

As for hospital beds, those are limited to the square footage available for them. Sure, temporary hospital wards can be constructed and put in place fairly quickly, but unless Steve and Gustavo are staffing them, you still have a big problem.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:29PM (#25447324)
This is just throwing your arms up in the air and saying it's unsolvable.

I don't give up. Make a temporary hospital with ip web cams pointed at all the vitals. Build a quick and dirty dashboard that lets doctors/nurses monitor dozens of patients at once instead of having to physically walk around everywhere. If engineers can get more done with less using automation, medical professionals can do it too.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by nobody9999 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:42PM (#25447477)
>This is just throwing your arms up in the air and saying it's unsolvable.

You're putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them. I think that's called a 'strawman argument'.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:06PM (#25446932)
At some point, you're experiencing runway problems. 9 women can't produce a baby in a month, after all.

They can, however, collectively produce 9 babies, 9 months after the start date.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:17PM (#25447118)
In an emergency situation, you make do. Train temporary workers to man the temporary hospitals. Teach them how to know when to defer to a medical professional. You can hire a bunch of boy scouts to do the repetitive stuff, and have them call in a real doctor or nurse if symptom progression isn't matching their training.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:22PM (#25447204)
> Train temporary workers to man the temporary hospitals. Teach them how to know when to defer to a medical professional.

Normal hospitals are already staffed at pretty close to the maximum rate of less qualified to more expert staff for their caseload, and the easy caseload that requires less expert share of time is pushed out of hospitals entirely by the crisis. Surging additional minimally trained staff doesn't help anything.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:33PM (#25447361)
Ok, then use technology to help the current staff do more. How many inefficiencies are preventing nurses and doctors from servicing more patients? Build a dashboard with the vitals of dozens of covid patients that a single qualified nurse can monitor instead of making a half dozen nurses all walk around to all the different beds and manually check everything
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:45PM (#25447517)
> How many inefficiencies are preventing nurses and doctors from servicing more patients? Build a dashboard with the vitals of dozens of covid patients that a single qualified nurse can monitor instead of making a half dozen nurses all walk around to all the different beds and manually check everything

I believe ICU nursing stations already use such dashboards routinely.

If they didn't, developing and testing new software to a level where it was reliable enough for such use without being checked up around, and training staff and adapting processes for it, would not be a quick process and, perhaps more importantly, would take staff time of clinical staff to participate in consultation and validation instead of clinical duties while it progressed.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:13PM (#25447920)
> If they didn't, developing and testing new software to a level where it was reliable enough for such use without being checked up around, and training staff and adapting processes for it, would not be a quick process and, perhaps more importantly would take staff time of clinical staff to participate in consultation and validation instead of clinical duties while it progressed.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. The solution doesn't have to be perfect. It can be quick and dirty now, and perfected later. It might be worth it, given the current solution is pushing hundreds of millions into poverty among other disastrous consequences.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:19PM (#25447999)
> The solution doesn't have to be perfect. It can be quick and dirty now, and perfected later

Quick and dirty IT solutions often reduce efficiency compared to not having them, and that's more likely the less involvement and validation with the target workers you have in the course of building it.

Plus, again, this is something hospitals already have and use and which already is factored into staffing requirements, and you are responding only to the theoretical problem that would exist if it actually was a new innovation being developed.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by matthewmacleod on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:06PM (#25446918)
I don't recall saying that, no. I'd wager that nobody would seriously say that, since it's obviously false.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by umvi on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:18PM (#25447130)
I interpreted the question as you implying temporary hospitals are absurd because there wouldn't be staff to man them.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by uoaei on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:31PM (#25446327)
I don't see how that would be a reason to stop the lockdowns. Remember that there is a severe respiratory contagion going around that spreads from breathing the same air as infected folks.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by neuland on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:35PM (#25446395)
Florida, Texas, and Sweden seem to be doing fine enough.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by uoaei on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:54PM (#25446730)
Are you being serious? I am seriously baffled that you think that is true.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by bearjaws on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:44PM (#25446567)
Tell that to the ICU nurses and doctors in Florida who have to code several people a day due to Covid...
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by henrikschroder on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:11PM (#25447007)
Heart disease and cancer combined kill four times as many people every year, than what covid-19 has done this year.

About 10% of all the people who died in the US this year will have died from covid-19. Why are those 10% of deaths so much more terrible, so unimaginably horrible, that we're focusing exclusively on those, and completely ignoring the remaining 90% of deaths?

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by uoaei on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:17PM (#25447113)
You can't catch heart disease and cancer by standing for 10 minutes in the same room as someone who is afflicted by either of those.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by t-writescode on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:16PM (#25447102)
Because it's an infectious disease spread through droplets in the air; because it's abnormal and therefore new and scary; and because it's more deadly than our other regular disease, the seasonal flu.
Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by neuland on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @02:06PM (#25446921)
Tell that to the family that lost their job and is now homeless. Tell that to the people who've lost love ones to suicide, overdose, alcoholism. (see I can be snarky and unhelpful, too)

The broader point is that it's not clear that lockdowns are beneficial or necessary. They have real costs. Nobody is talking about how we weigh those costs and benefits. And despite the lockdowns, California still has a swamped medical system.

To move the conversation forward: people will never give up their sacred cows. The lockdowns were never about COVID, they're about control and rewarding political allies. Texas tried to ban abortion. California tried to ban religion. And nobody cares if the lockdowns work or not.

Re:Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:46PM (#25446594)
The lockdowns were more essential than the stimulus payments, though no sane government would fail to do both in the circumstances.

(Our government failed on both the lockdowns, which were scattered, too late in many places, and too poorly enforced in most places, and stimulus, but then our government, at many levels, has not been sane.)