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Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by simias on Sunday December 13, 2020 @05:49PM (#25411215)
I'm always skeptical of these "nation state" claims, it seems like an easy way out of any tough question about the security of these systems.

"No, no, you don't understand, it's not that our systems are insecure, it's that the attackers where highly sophisticated and had the resources of a nation state, otherwise it would never have worked out".

I suppose "we think it could be done by a group of two or three teenagers with decent knowledge of wget" doesn't have the same ring to it.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by tialaramex on Sunday December 13, 2020 @07:50PM (#25412093)
Right. There are situations where we can see that the only apparent way to do something needed very considerable resources, which suggests a state actor.

Equation Group is presumed to be (a front for) the NSA. It forged a (code signing) certificate that otherwise shouldn't exist, using an MD5 collision. But not the MD5 collision painfully created by researchers a little earlier to demonstrate that MD5 was vulnerable, it used a brand new collision purpose made for this attack. That's a considerable investment.

Then also, we can look at who benefits from what was done. Equation Group's "Flame" malware damaged the Iranian nuclear programme. That's something the US government, Israel, some other countries wanted, but it isn't something a bored teenager wants, or a drug cartel, or most for-profit corporations.

As described so far I don't see either the resource needs or the outcome satisfying this conclusion.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by guerrilla on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:56PM (#25412653)
Didn't Dan Kaminsky and others have tools to produce nearly arbitray collisions by the early 2000s?
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by tialaramex on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:13PM (#25412755)
Perhaps? I can't find any evidence easily that Dan did have such tool, but "by the early 2000s" it's not at all unthinkable certainly. If you have a link that'd be great.

However the trouble is MD5 collision isn't like that hilarious "Send all zeroes" Microsoft bug from a few weeks back where you just try it a few times then it works because someone was very stupid - the MD5 collision is pretty hard, the Merkle–Damgård construction actually works, your attack avenue is hammering on the compression function, everything else in MD5 (and any other Merkle–Damgård construction) works because of mathematics unless you can break that compression function - so having a program that when you run it spits out an MD5 collision with your preferred shape is great, it's a cryptographic breakthrough - but maybe it'll take 5000 years to run on a typical home PC. If you're a government or a big crime boss then money turns that into 5 days or (if you've enough of it) 5 hours instead, but if you're a bored teenager or small time crook not so much.

And like I said, Flame depends on a never before seen collision, so it isn't like they just re-used work somebody else had done.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by HexagonalKitten on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:09AM (#25414075)
Do you have any idea what time window they had to generate collisions in?

The MS article on the collision says the attack required knowledge of, among other things, the predictable serial numbers. They could have had as little as the usual inter-cert issuance time, or in the worst-case scenario with entirely predictable numbers could have had months or more.

Depending on the window the funds required would change dramatically.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by bun_at_work on Monday December 14, 2020 @09:36AM (#25417992)
I agree that there is a wide range of costs for the attack, however for the sake of the discussion I would point out that the lower bound of that cost is likely to still be prohibitive for a teenager.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by raxxorrax on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:52AM (#25414552)
As far as I know you can reliably change a few bits and get a collision, not create arbitrary data with padded info whose hash collides with the original data.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by birktj on Monday December 14, 2020 @08:43AM (#25417376)
The HashClash tool [1] was written back in 2006 and can construct chosen-prefix md5 collisions. Don't know if it has anything to do with Dan Kaminsky though.

[1]: https://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by res0nat0r on Sunday December 13, 2020 @06:01PM (#25411322)
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by simias on Sunday December 13, 2020 @07:02PM (#25411801)
I wish we had more concrete evidence than "according to people familiar with the matter" though. That's kind of my issue: if these attackers are so sophisticated, how can they be sure it's this particular group?

I realize that there are probably many good reasons for not sharing deep technical details in such cases, but from the point of view of an external observer it's really hard to know who should be trusted and how solid these claims are.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by TameAntelope on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:34PM (#25412471)
A very common source of information to reporters are people who aren't authorized to speak about an issue, or people who have informal relationships with the press and don't want their names revealed publicly.

There are indeed many good reasons why specific people aren't cited in these articles, but who you're trusting is the Washington Post, not these individuals. The trust comes from what the Washington Post does when it finds out it has published false information, and its track record of making sure what it publishes as news is accurate, or corrected when discovered to be false.

As a overly generic rule, trust (or don't) the Institution over the individuals.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by simias on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:27AM (#25414720)
I'm perfectly willing to trust that the WaPo is reporting truthfully and that their sources are legit, but without concrete evidence it's hard to judge how serious the allegation really is.

Is it "they forgot to switch their VPN on once and we got a direct connection from an IP that belongs to the Russian state" like that other time (still manipulable but fairly conclusive IMO) or is it "that really looks like the modus operandi of those damn russians and we really need somebody to pin it on right now"?

To be clear I'm not making one of those "fake news" pro-russian rants, I can totally believe that Russia would very much do the things being reproached here if given the opportunity, I just have a really hard time taking the word of an anonymous source without concrete elements in these matters because the potential for manipulation is so absolutely tremendous.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by TameAntelope on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:35PM (#25420406)
I tend to consider news reports more akin to a, “here’s what we know now” report than a, “this is the definitive explanation of what’s taken place.”

So in that spirit I agree with you. What this looks like, so far, is a sophisticated Russian attack. From here, we’re going to learn more, and that new info may change how we understand what’s happened substantially.

Though I will say I personally don’t care much that the source is anonymous, because I trust WaPo to vet what they’ve said with other sources. It’s not a perfect system, but it’s not like journalists are unaware of the groups trying to manipulate them.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by DiogenesKynikos on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:45AM (#25415141)
Often, people who "aren't authorized" are used to plant an idea in the press, without the agency in question having to make an official statement. Whether that information is reliable depends on whether you trust the agenda of whoever decided to leak the information.

The Washington Post's record on verifying the claims of the US national security apparatus is poor. The newspaper uncritically reported false claims by the Bush administration about Iraqi WMD. Many people people at the time found those claims extremely dubious, but critical voices were belittled or shut out of most mainstream reporting. More recently, the Washington Post has been all-in on Russia paranoia. That doesn't mean that everything they publish about Russian hackers is wrong, but it very well may be misinformation leaked by US intelligence officials, or something insignificant blown out of proportion and presented without any context. In December 2016, for example, the Washington Post reported that the Russians had hacked a Vermont utility. That story turned out to be complete nonsense, but the Washington Post never fully retracted it. If you look at the story today, you'll still get the impression that the Russians attempted to hack the utility, even though that aspect of the story completely fell apart. The Washington Post on Russia is a bit like Bloomberg on Chinese hackers (e.g., Supermicro).

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by polytely on Monday December 14, 2020 @09:03AM (#25417605)
But you should also keep in mind that organizations (or factions within organizations) will use these channels for their own purposes, to test public opinion before an official announcement, as propaganda channel or to undermine elected officials who are politically in charge.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by chroem- on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:13AM (#25414942)
> As a overly generic rule, trust (or don't) the Institution over the individuals.

That is precisely the same line of reasoning that started the Iraq War based on lies. The New York Times claimed to have intel from anonymous sources showing that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons, and their false reporting is what led the US to declare war. That snafu didn't happen all that long ago, and yet most people in 2020 seem to have blocked it out of their minds.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by TheOtherHobbes on Monday December 14, 2020 @09:16AM (#25417755)
The difference is that it wasn't hard to work out the claims were nonsense. WMDs are hugely expensive, and the Iraqi economy was running on fumes at that point. That combined with US belligerence against Iraq made the claims improbable.

But Russia actually does have a strong black hat culture, with links to the political establishment. Putin is a technologically savvy kind of despot who likes sneaky low-cost high-return actions. So this fits the profile - both as a workable hack and also as a proof of concept for future attacks.

Consider the cost/benefit. Instead of physically blowing up infrastructure and security systems you can cripple them, possibly permanently, for the cost of - what? - 20 or 30 specialists, some PCs, and maybe some supercomputer time. Although even that may be optional.

It's unlikely conclusive evidence will be released, because that might reveal too much information about defence strategies. So circumstantial evidence will be as good as it gets.

But whatever the cause, clearly - clearly - all countries and larger orgs need to work much harder on security. Some decorative pen-testing isn't going to be nearly enough in the 2020s.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by chroem- on Monday December 14, 2020 @10:18AM (#25418486)
That's all well and good, but it fails to account for potential action by state actors other than Russia. Everything you have said applies just as much to China, if not more so.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by TameAntelope on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:08PM (#25421745)
Vetting and sourcing information accurately is a Hard Problem. I don’t expect WaPo (or anyone) to get it right all the time, but I do trust WaPo reporters to be very aware of the best ways to do it, and to let me know when they end up getting it wrong.

At some point you have to trust others to be good at their jobs, and when an org like WaPo demonstrates their proficiency over and over again, their believability rises.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by astronautjones on Sunday December 13, 2020 @07:12PM (#25411877)
I totally agree with your point (and would trust a hazy dream more than anything coming from this government), but I'd add that even if they claim to identify these parties forensically, they're often using parallel construction through their own espionage. like in the mueller investigation, they had a lot of firsthand knowledge of the IRA's business from inside the building (and the names of everyone that worked there). It's often not a technical conclusion based on the intrusions, but a conclusion reached by evidence gathered through other means

bellingcat has also done a pretty remarkable job of identifying state-employed hackers and spies just through buying russian passport control information and other private information that's out there on the market

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by disabled on Sunday December 13, 2020 @11:38PM (#25413618)
> bellingcat has also done a pretty remarkable job of identifying state-employed hackers and spies just through buying russian passport control information and other private information that's out there on the market

Wow, I just looked some stuff up on bellingcat. It appears that Russia is pretty bad at covering its tracks. This is a good example: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/11/07/how...

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by 9HZZRfNlpR on Sunday December 13, 2020 @07:42PM (#25412061)
Sounds reasonable but I don't remind reading it from the released pdf of the investigation. I actually read the whole thing, it's long but rather interesting from the hacker and espionage spirit.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by stjohnswarts on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:29PM (#25413212)
Because those people would lose their jobs, possibly do jail time, and possibly the story would never have broken in the first place if reporters were required to always give up their sources in the article. Usually they do vetting or it's people they've worked with before and they trust.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by bun_at_work on Monday December 14, 2020 @09:40AM (#25418043)
So far as I understand it, "hacker groups," private or state-level, are generally identified by the tools they use. The same groups will re-use the tools and exploits they have over and over, including some known libraries. Security researchers capture the malware sent out from those groups and reverse engineer them. These allow groups of malware signatures to be created, which allows researchers to start to identify potential actors. It didn't take long for the security community to start blaming certain organizations for Stuxnet, despite there being little proof of their claims...
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:36AM (#25414205)
You either believe it or you don't. There have been instances where more details were released (the Clinton campaign hack, IIRC), and it just gave more opportunity for people who did not want to believe it to nitpick details.

Whoever does such things doesn't exactly sign their exploits to prove ownership. So the evidence might be something like IP addresses in log files: totally convincing if it's your log file, but so easy to manipulate it's useful to convince someone who does not trust you.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by minerjoe on Sunday December 13, 2020 @07:09PM (#25411849)
Exacty. And we also know that the NSA/CIA have placed Russian language inside their exploits to frame other countries.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by hyeomans on Sunday December 13, 2020 @11:00PM (#25413400)
Source?
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by _kbh_ on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:01AM (#25414306)
Marble Framework from Vault 7 leaks.

https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_14588467.html

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by Throwaway1771 on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:45AM (#25413973)
I've heard this in the "right rooms" to know this to be likely true, but I'd like something to link to, too.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by bun_at_work on Monday December 14, 2020 @09:33AM (#25417960)
This attack is a supply chain attack on enterprise software used by huge government organizations. Where can teenagers with wget pull that off?

When a leading security group (FireEye) says it's a state-level actor, I don't think they are doing PR.

It's fine to be skeptical, but why are you being skeptical? Perhaps it's lost on me but I don't think the claim that PR would look bad _if it were teenagers_ is a good reason to promote widespread distrust of ???.

I see the compromise of SolarWinds Orion software as far more likely to be carried out by state level actors than by script-kiddies. What would script-kiddies stand to gain?

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by Kiro on Monday December 14, 2020 @02:11AM (#25414343)
Your comment didn't age well.

https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2020/12/evasive...

If this is not sophisticated, I don't know what is.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by a3n on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:24PM (#25412365)
> the attackers where highly sophisticated and had the resources of a nation state

Also, the attack was carefully crafted. How could anyone expect or defend against a carefully crafted attack, by a nation state no less.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by numbsafari on Monday December 14, 2020 @06:34AM (#25415865)
Well, one would presume our own nation state could, for starters.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by TameAntelope on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:29PM (#25412411)
Maybe someone with more familiarity on the topic can chime in, but I don't think it's the effective PR move you think it is. Nobody, I think, actually cares who from a blame perspective.

The idea that there's face saving to be had by blaming it on someone sophisticated just doesn't ring true to me. It still happened, the details specifically about who and how don't make your board, your boss, or Wall St. care.

It's way more relevant how you react to the breach, than it is that the breach took place.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by bosswipe on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:11PM (#25412258)
FWIW, I'm also sceptical of comments like yours. A nation state involved in a lot of hacking would be interested in spreading your kind of doubts on social media. I'm not trying to accuse you personally, I don't know you from Putin, I'm just wondering why this response has become so popular recently.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by simias on Monday December 14, 2020 @03:34AM (#25414754)
I'm not usually very distrustful of mainstream news (at least, by internet standards) but I am very distrustful of the news' capacity to vet very technical issues correctly. Remember that Bloomberg "the Chinese put spy microchips on our motherboards" story?

I'm not accusing the WaPo of being distrustful here, I just think that in these cases the potential for manipulation, half-truths and technical mistakes from their sources is very high, and without either knowing who these sources are or what are the concrete element they're using to make their conclusions I find it very hard to blindly trust these sources.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by hangonhn on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:30PM (#25420314)
I have the exact same attitude. Reading WaPo, Bloomberg, and even NYT (though I think NYT has a slight edge here) report on technical issues make me cringe. You can tell they're trying to hardest to understand and to explain it in a comprehensible way but it's just so bad. Then I think to myself, if that's the way it is for computing, what about other technical/STEM/specialized fields? I trust them for their reporting on those but what if they have missing the important nuances there too?
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by rendall on Monday December 14, 2020 @04:39AM (#25415104)
> "I'm just wondering why this response has become so popular recently."

There is a huge divergence in understanding of the purport of recent events, starting with the Wikileaks release of DNC emails in 2016, and continuing through to Hunter Biden's laptop

One camp believes or suspects that Russia is more of a useful bugbear and scapegoat for certain political factions in the US, used cynically as FUD to manipulate public perceptions, than something to be so worried about

The other believes in good faith that Russia is a dangerous and sophisticated adversary with assets in the highest levels of the US government, and finds the first camp to be incomprehensibly obtuse at best

It's difficult for these 2 camps to communicate effectively for some reason

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by mikem170 on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:22PM (#25412348)
Lack of trust.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:37AM (#25414215)
> I'm just wondering why this response has become so popular recently.

Nihilistic cynicism sounds a lot like smartitude to stupid people.

Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by pydry on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:29PM (#25412415)
It's easier to get congress to pump the relevant parts of the military industrial complex with $$$ when it's "cyber warfare" too.
Re:U.S. Treasury breached by hackers backed by foreign gover... by stjohnswarts on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:25PM (#25413189)
I thought all the script kiddies were using curl ? :)