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Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by the_af on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:17AM (#25398336)
I'm sure you already know this, but this story is like a Zen koan: it's purpose is not to provide a conclusion, but for you to ponder something. In this case, human nature.

Had the story provided a conclusion, in 2020 or any other year, it would be entirely unremarkable.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by codeulike on Saturday December 12, 2020 @09:25AM (#25398379)
And I'm saying a story can still explore issues and have you ponder about them without the author having to step in and explicitly tell you to do so.

The story could, for example, have explored the issue of which way the princess might lean from the guys point of view, which covers all the same human nature angles, and then it could also have gone on to have a proper ending. I value storycraft.

I'm not saying the story should have been different back then, I'm sure it was perfect for 1882, and thats why its remembered now. I'm interested in how I differ from the 1882 audience.

edit: and koans are more about invoking mind states beyond words, like a kind of mind-hack, than they are about pondering ponderable things.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by jancsika on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:47PM (#25400024)
> I value storycraft.

The form of this story has used widely since, and those stories have been incredibly popular with both authors and audiences for well over 100 years now. Implying that a tried-and-true technique of story-telling lies outside of storycraft betrays basic a lack of understanding of the subject.

Story tellers enjoy this form for the challenge of balancing what the omniscient narrator reveals-- too much or too strong in one direction and the whole thing falls flat. Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past.

In fact, Nabokov balanced this same form masterfully in the short story, "Signs and Symbols." The effect there is that the reader leaps off into a level of... well, I don't want to ruin it. :) But it's enough to say that outside of VR I don't think that story could have been effectively written without using the lady-or-the-tiger form.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by hitekker on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:32PM (#25404328)
> Readers enjoy the form because it feels a bit like ski jumping-- the writer provides the momentum and the reader's imagination leaps off the end with all the story's implications flying past.

Great metaphor. The story zips you down at full-speed, and then launches you upwards into the air. If you're comfortable feeling ungrounded, you'll be able to look across the horizon, in awe of the sights you couldn't see before. But if you're a lazy or cowardly person, your overriding urge will to return to the earth, to get back down to the safety of the soft slopes. Heck, later on, you might even petition the proprietor of the ski-resort to get rid of the ramp.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by codeulike on Sunday December 13, 2020 @04:27AM (#25405345)
Well that would be great if the story had anything profound for me to ponder. I don't think it earnt it (speaking of my personal experience of the story). "Murderous jealousy exists" is hardly that earth shaking.

I think partly with this story it was because it was on the front page of HN, so I had very high expectations. The story is clearly building to something, to me in 2020 it seemed disappointing. I'm interested to hear how it was received in 1882 though.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by the_af on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:23PM (#25401360)
Great comment! Now I'll have to hunt down that story by Nabokov.
Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by the_af on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:09AM (#25399107)
I'm not particularly fond of this story -- I think its preamble is too long and meandering -- but why do you think this has something to do with 1882 vs 2020 audiences? And why do you think it's bad storycraft to leave the conclusion open-ended?

This kind of device is used to great success in modern fiction, such as Stephen King's (non-supernatural!) short story "All that you love will be taken away", where the conclusion is not only open-ended, but also left to chance!

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by codeulike on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:22AM (#25399246)
Well I'm hoping someone more familiar with cultural history might be able to tell me. 138 years ago is a hell of a long time. E.g. maybe murderous jealousy was a more risque concept then? And hence asking your audience to consider it was more provocative?
Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by user-the-name on Saturday December 12, 2020 @10:42AM (#25398892)
Actual koans do have conclusions, though. The westernised and mysticised ones do not.
Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by the_af on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:20AM (#25399231)
Interesting variation on "No True Koan (Scotman)".
Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by codeulike on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:28AM (#25399309)
How many Buddhists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Two. One to change the bulb, and one not to.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by agytvfr on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:50AM (#25399530)
> How many Buddhists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Zero, change is in the nature of all things. It is natural that the light bulb itself will change.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by blisterpeanuts on Saturday December 12, 2020 @12:51PM (#25400048)
Question: how many Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?

Answer:

--

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by watwut on Saturday December 12, 2020 @01:35PM (#25400357)
I mean, this story is remarkable only in that it is badly written.
Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by the_af on Saturday December 12, 2020 @03:20PM (#25401329)
That's a bit unfair, though I agree the story is not particularly well written.

To me, the ending question is interesting. I want to know what happens! I think the princess leads her lover to the tiger, after all her temper is barbaric and she also thinks she'll reunite with him in the afterlife. That bloodshed though...

It's also remarkable in that it apparently inspired the Monty Hall door challenge, which is of obvious interest to the HN crowd.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by watwut on Sunday December 13, 2020 @05:19AM (#25405540)
One problem is that the story gives zero information on princess except her blood being barbaric. And the story also have overall very odds treatment of justice and fairness. And characters are cartoons. And the only property of wife that matters is her look.

Which is why I did not cared about how it ends. The people in story are not real enough to reason about them. They don't have psychology beyond crude stereotypes.

Like, ok, she grew with psychopathic dad, which the story author basically praises. She had likely accumulated trauma and resentment towards dad and own never met emotional needs. Is she even capable of strong emotiomal commitment? People with dads like that struggle in that area.

Maybe whole relationship was just her way to get revenge on dad by being involved in humiliating relationship for him. We really don't know whether she will be jealous or not, given that she knew she wont marry this dude from day 1. Or she hinted nothing, or she had no idea and hinted only to unparalyze him.

But the story author does not consider such option, because she is not real character. She is just literary device. She is supposed to be motivated solely by dudes body beauty, but that is not real people think.

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by the_af on Sunday December 13, 2020 @12:06PM (#25408020)
> One problem is that the story gives zero information on princess except her blood being barbaric [...] And the only property of wife that matters is her look.

This is the only information you really need.

> They don't have psychology beyond crude stereotypes.

Do you similarly judge a fable by Aesop? Or poetry about human emotions? Have you read Saki's masterful short story, "Sredni Vashtar", and do you similarly dislike it because its characters are not full-fledged?

Some say the world will end in fire, some say in ice. What information would you need to decide?

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by watwut on Sunday December 13, 2020 @04:27PM (#25410454)
Fables by Aeson are better translated typically - sentences flow better. They also don't pretend to create deep puzzle about humanity while being shallow. They are what they are, simple stories.

That being said, I did not particularly enjoyed them. But again, they come across as more honest.

> This is the only information you really need

No it is not. Really really it is not if the puzzle is supposed to tell something about you or humans. It could have been interesting if she had actual complex personality and actual relationships. But she does not.

Well beyond "what if you are raised by abusive psychopathic dad and then someone looking down on you all writes story about it".

Re:The Lady, or the Tiger? (1882) by codeulike on Sunday December 13, 2020 @08:38AM (#25406465)
Good point, one of the reasons I find the 'well lets stop the story and imagine what she might have done' thing doesn't work is because she is not very real.