News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by fortran77 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:53PM (#25364754)
> while old residents pay nothing

This is patently false. Property taxes can and do raise 2%/year.

California does need to build new housing.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by woah on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:57PM (#25364813)
You are quite simply wrong. Here is a map showing how next door neighbors frequently have a 10x difference in property taxes paid on equivalent dwellings: https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/map-bay-area-property-ta...
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by mrep on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:55PM (#25365789)
Holy shit! Just an example I found, 230 Atherton Ave, Atherton, CA 94027 vs 234 Atherton Ave, Atherton, CA 94027, both absolute mansions with pools looking at them on google maps and the former even has a tennis court. Property taxes paid: 8,000 for the former and 200,000 for the latter. Absolute insanity!
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by omgwtfbyobbq on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:29PM (#25365371)
You're both right. Property taxes can increase by up to 2% per year, and new owners frequently pay far more than old owners because property has appreciated significantly in coastal metros with limited space for new construction.

This had been especially obvious because historically low interest rates have enabled a lot of asset appreciation, with real estate being one example. High real estate prices lead to high property taxes, which makes the difference in taxes paid much more obvious.

NIMBYism also plays a part, but I think people routinely overlook that developers often don't improve local facilities in line with local housing projects, which can lead to all kinds of awfulness. That new 1000 unit apartment complex also needs 1000+ parking spaces, along with other improvements in local infrastructure in proportion to the increase in population, but a developer won't care about that unless someone forces them to care.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by JamesBarney on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:25PM (#25366152)
1. You're implying that increased housing density makes it harder to find infrastructure. This is just false since high density makes infrastructure cheaper per person.

2. Why should it be the developers jobs to build out new infrastructure that isn't directly needed by their building. It's their job to build housing which brings people, those people bring taxes and those taxes pay for upgrades to infrastructure.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by omgwtfbyobbq on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:09PM (#25367512)
I'm not implying it's harder to find infrastructure. I'm arguing that developers don't want to pay for any infrastructure improvements needed to keep services operating in the same manner with more people. Like everyone else, they're self interested and will act in ways that maximize their own interests, even if it externalizes certain costs to the surrounding community. I suspect it's also more expensive per person to upgrade existing infrastructure compared to building it new.

In terms of who should improve infrastructure, it doesn't really matter who does it, but I think either local government or the developer should be required to do it and not be allowed to let things slide. I focus on the developer because they're the first in the process, but it doesn't matter if instead the city requires the developer to build in the infrastructure improvement costs and does it themselves. The only position I have is that it should get done.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by JamesBarney on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:16PM (#25378002)
Sorry find was me mistyping "fund".

Btw what infrastructure are you talking about? Water, electrics, roads or sewage I'm guessing.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by omgwtfbyobbq on Thursday December 10, 2020 @04:34PM (#25379028)
I gotcha. I'm also thinking of mass transit, parking, retail, and probably a few more things I've forgotten about. Even the local geography/weather can play a part in terms of pollution. If we go from a subdivision with 40 houses to apartments with 4,000 units and update the existing infrastructure, 4,000+ cars starting up every day could result in a significant increase in exhaust pollution that we may not be able to design around. The climate/geography are going to be the climate/geography.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by adrr on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:55PM (#25365795)
They do pay. Major developments get slapped with a mello-roos tax which leads to even larger disparity in taxes paid between long term resident and new residents. It’s huge, you could be paying $20k in taxes while the person down the street is paying $5k.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by omgwtfbyobbq on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:09PM (#25365952)
Mello Roos doesn't make the developer pay, they make the people in the special district pay. The developer gets to sell the units without any concern for what more people will do to local infrastructure.

I guess they could be $15k/year, but I've never seen an example that high. My mom lives in Yucca Valley and has two or three Mello Roos items (water district, local community college, and something else), and I think maybe pays about $600 total for them.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by adrr on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:08PM (#25366685)
That’s cheap. This is Playa del Rey area in LA which has Google,FB, and other regional offices. Plus 1.2% property tax.

https://playavistaexperts.com/buying-selling-resources/mello...

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by omgwtfbyobbq on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:54PM (#25367333)
That's a good point, and I should probably be thinking about Mello Roos in terms of percent of property value or something.

It's a ton off money either way, although I guess not surprising in Playa del Rey.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by kindatrue on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:30PM (#25367030)
Here's a link to the map https://www.officialdata.org/ca-property-tax/

This tweet highlights some of the insaneness: https://twitter.com/nextdoorsv/status/1265719788875272192

Someone pays $806 per year, living next to someone who pays $27,732 per year.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by rcpt on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:50PM (#25367943)
taxfairnessproject.org Worth a look
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by rconti on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:59PM (#25364855)
Of course it's false. Old residents don't pay "nothing", they pay "next to nothing". Look up any house that changes hands after 40 years. The old owners were paying a tax liability an order of magnitude less than the new one.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by millstone on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:06PM (#25367471)
Worse, if it changes hands through inheritance there is no step up in basis.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by rcpt on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:53PM (#25367978)
And as a result white families pay lower property taxes in California.

https://twitter.com/alfred_twu/status/1327821019931787264?s=...

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by blntechie on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:10PM (#25365970)
It’s simply amazing how allowing to build 50 high rise condos would bring the entire bubble down but the CA (or most American) cities or the state won’t. It will obviously fail on the ballot due to NIMBYism but I’m not sure why would that even need to be on ballot.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by parineum on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:52PM (#25366457)
> It will obviously fail on the ballot due to NIMBYism but I’m not sure why would that even need to be on ballot.

Translation: The people who live there won't vote for a thing they don't want.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by pas on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:31AM (#25371258)
So allll the people who sit hours and hours each day in traffic, pay a fortune for a shack don't outweigh those that just want to preserve the neighborhood's character?
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by parineum on Thursday December 10, 2020 @03:35PM (#25378256)
Not if they don't live there.

Because of it's size and market influence, California laws can effect the rest of the country, should the rest of the country vote in California elections?

The people who _choose_ to sit in the traffic are getting what they signed up for. I could be that person and I choose not to be in no small part to that situation.

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by pas on Thursday December 10, 2020 @04:17PM (#25378834)
What do you mean they don't live there? The folks who live in CA and commute all day (BART or cars or whatever), or are priced out of their old neighborhood, or sleep in their car? Or pay a fortune for a room illegally sublet? Can't they vote on CA elections?
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by parineum on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @09:32PM (#25438327)
We're talking about local (county or city) regulations that prevent the building of high density structures in a lot of these cities. Those regulations exist because the residents want them. Non-residents don't vote on those regulations because they don't live there, just like non-CA residents don't get to vote on CA laws even though those people are affected by them.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by the_economist on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:47PM (#25366412)
This is not completely true, as the cost to build high rise condos is extremely high and the land is very expensive. Every place in the USA that has kept housing affordable has done so with sprawl, which California's government doesn't allow.

You can see a detailed study of it here: https://www.buildzoom.com/blog/cities-expansion-slowing

Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by llampx on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:49PM (#25367264)
The land is very expensive, shouldn't that be good enough of a reason to build high rises? It works in NYC and most of Europe, the only reason there are few high rises in SF is because of the government that prefers artificial scarcity.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by the_economist on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @08:06PM (#25368128)
Building sky scrapers is way more expensive than building single family homes on empty grassland, where the land is also cheaper. Of course the city should build up, but building out is the real way every US city has kept housing affordable (look at the study I linked above)
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by notnap on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @07:54PM (#25367994)
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by paconbork on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:17PM (#25369219)
Luckily, earthquake-resistant structures have come a long way since then. For example, Tokyo is home to the second-tallest structure in the world, and they're not exactly unfamiliar with earthquakes
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by inchoa on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:28PM (#25366191)
It doesn't go on the ballot directly, it goes on the ballot in the form of voting in local city officials (specifically the city council) who set the zoning laws/rules.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by dangjc on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:59PM (#25364863)
Many properties I’m looking at are assessed at a value in the $50-200k range but sell around $1mm. Long time residents in such cases Pay less than 1/5 the property taxes new residents pay.
Re:Elon Musk moves to Texas by kindatrue on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @06:33PM (#25367067)
https://twitter.com/nextdoorsv/status/1265719788875272192

Palo Alto. Someone pays $1081 per year living adjacent to someone who pays $24K per year.