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Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by drchopchop on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:57AM (#25359931)
The marketplace is broken. A non-trivial amount of people believe the earth is flat. People are becoming immune to fact-based evidence, because they get to immerse themselves in an alternate universe which tells them that they're right. Soon the ramifications won't be restricted to people shooting up pizza parlors.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:07AM (#25360076)
And a non-trivial number of people believed that the U.S. has spent decades slashing school funding. Or that Stacey Abrams "should be the governor of Georgia right now." Or that Citizens United was about campaign contributions. Or that we are 10 years away from the end of civilization due to climate change. As a life-long Democrat, I didn't realize how much false received wisdom I had internalized until I married a Republican.

I think it's fair to say that Republicans are somewhat more likely to believe in false information, but Democrats believe plenty of incorrect things as well. And I'd rather have a broken marketplace than one where Democrats just get to decide what's true.

Especially when its taken just 5 minutes for the perceived guard rails to evaporate! We're not talking about "the earth is flat" here. We are talking about Hunter Biden emails that still nobody has proven are inauthentic. We're talking about election fraud allegations which are the subject of ongoing court cases for god's sake. Even if I'm amenable to "fact checking" something like "Obama was born in Kenya" I'm sure as hell not going to support Google deciding something is true or untrue before the courts do.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by matwood on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:21PM (#25361813)
> We're talking about election fraud allegations which are the subject of ongoing court cases for god's sake.

Except we're not. Guiliani said in one of the few courts that asked for an oral argument that it wasn't a fraud case[1]. Fraud requires specific proof which he/they do not have.

This is PR/fund raising disguised as comical legal filings.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/us/politics/trump-giulian...

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by Gunax on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:57PM (#25365825)
I think this is a good example of what happens when you wade into a nest of vipers. 'Fraud' can have different meanings, and sometimes what is used in common language is not the correct legal term.

So is it misleading to call it fraud? Or are you just nitpicking? Depends on who you ask.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by tzs on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:46PM (#25361316)
> We're talking about election fraud allegations which are the subject of ongoing court cases for god's sake.

Does a case really count as "ongoing" if it gets dismissed pretty much as soon as the judge finishes reading the plaintiff's complaint?

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:34PM (#25362094)
The media breathlessly reports allegations in complaints as fact all the time. Stacey Abrams' case against Brian Kemp over the 2016 election was voluntarily dismissed without the court ever reaching the merits. The media reported on the complaint, and an early ruling granting Abrams discovery, but of course never reported the quiet voluntary dismissal when nothing turned up.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by esja on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:20PM (#25361785)
Do you believe Google staff (or their outsourced contractors) can and should pre-judge the outcomes of US court cases?

Editing to make this a bit clearer:

As a matter of principle, do you believe Google staff (or their outsourced contractors) can and should pre-judge the outcomes of US court cases? I ask about principles because it's very easy to focus on the specific details of these particular cases, and the fact it's your political enemy pursuing them. But that may not be true next time, and certainly won't be true every time.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by matwood on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:28PM (#25361959)
It's not pre-judging when case after case has been dismissed and/or laughed out of the courtroom.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by esja on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:06PM (#25362857)
It is literally pre-judging. You are deciding the outcome of a case that has not occurred, based on cases that have.

I've replied in more detail to your other comment which said much the same thing.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by awnird on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:14AM (#25360158)
Google is not deciding what is true or untrue. Google is deciding what they will host on their service.

The mods on this site make similar decisions every single day, but I've never seen you post about that. Why shouldn't youtube have the same ability to moderate their site as Hacker News?

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:29AM (#25360362)
Google is deciding what to host based on decisions about what is purportedly true or untrue.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by lawnchair_larry on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @05:42PM (#25366358)
As a life-long Democrat, I didn't realize how much false received wisdom I had internalized until I married a Republican.

As another left-leaning person who has also had this experience recently, and who is rather disturbed by the delusions and hypocrisy from “my team”, I’ve noticed that your posts lately seem to do an excellent job of offering a more complete picture. Often, completing the picture involves clarifying the right-leaning viewpoint. It’s unfortunate that you usually get downvoted for it, even when you aren’t inserting your own opinion and stating things that are objectively true.

Just curious, has the combination of the bad behavior by many on the left in conjunction with receiving additional context from the right, pushed you towards the center or even the right? Or are you merely trying to act as more of an ambassador for Republican views?

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by he0001 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:19PM (#25361776)
> We are talking about Hunter Biden emails that still nobody has proven are inauthentic.

Have they been proven to be authentic?

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:36PM (#25362141)
No, but if they were so obviously fraudulent so as to merit a media blackout, wouldn't we have established that by now? When there is actually a real dispute over authenticity, that's news.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by souprock on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:56PM (#25362627)
Yes, by cryptographic signature. DKIM was verified. Some senders/recipients also provided human verification.

Censorship is why you didn't already know this. It should have been major news, being the headline story everywhere for a week. It passed by here quietly, on Hacker News, and was quickly flagged.

You're left with an incomplete view of the world that is very misleading. People everywhere are using this warped view of reality to make world-changing decisions.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by h_anna_h on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:12PM (#25364058)
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by quotemstr on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:59AM (#25359968)
The marketplace is not broken merely because one party's goods aren't selling. If I make scratchy toilet paper and people don't buy it, it's my fault, not the market's. The fact is that the media elite have little credibility these days among the general public, their wares suck, and people are investigating alternatives. The solution isn't censorship. It's becoming more credible.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by status_quo69 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:36PM (#25362142)
Why should credibility matter? That is to say, how can the average person know that what they're reading is credible or not to make that determination and say "oh, CNN reported this and it's credible! Must mean that CNN is becoming more credible and I should watch it more because they have a better product" rather than "CNN is reporting this but it doesn't line up with what I want to believe, they must be wrong and not credible". Your metaphor doesn't make sense in a world where news stories are looked at skin deep, where someone doesn't even know that the toilet paper is scratchy it just _looks_ scratchy from the label or uncle Joe told me that it must be scratchy because it's made by Proctor & Gamble.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:50PM (#25362497)
Credibility matters, because people really do want to base their opinions on facts. CNN existed for two decades before Fox News got popular. That wasn't the case because everyone agreed all the time back then. It was because the media respected its role in society and at least tried to be objective.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by status_quo69 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:19PM (#25363116)
> people really do want to base their opinions on facts

Not really, confirmation bias is a real thing for all human beings. The issue here is that there's a fundamental disagreement about what constitutes a fact. Objectivity in reporting is also subjective, funnily enough. If I consider NPR to be very objective because the dead-pan monotonic voice of the announcer simply says a direct quote from a member of congress, I can talk to a relative who will tell me that same NPR story is biased because they reported on something they don't agree with.

> It was because the media respected its role in society and at least tried to be objective.

There are _plenty_ of news outlets that still respect their role in society. The difference is that 20-30 years ago, there wasn't a deluge of information or misinformation readily available to get those dopamine hits from confirming biases.

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:12PM (#25364064)
> There are _plenty_ of news outlets that still respect their role in society.

Like?

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by status_quo69 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:05PM (#25364969)
I doubt that compiling a list will convince you, but NPR, the BBC, the Economist, the WSJ, the AP, National Review as a small snippet.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by rayiner on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:17PM (#25365163)
I agree, but I’m not sure I’d call those “major” (in the US) except maybe the WSJ.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by cpursley on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:00PM (#25361476)
> The solution isn't censorship. It's becoming more credible.

This is great. Is it a quote?

Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by quotemstr on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @03:01PM (#25363848)
No. I wrote it just now.
Re:YouTube to remove content that alleges widespread electio... by thelastwave on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:02AM (#25360015)
But all the little monkeys don't understand science.