I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money because Larry Ellison just thought it was cool tech and they use it a lot. Likewise, GraalVM is so well funded largely because it's cool and Oracle doesn't have many cool R&D projects. It's not clear it's all that commercially driven when you observe that so much of it is open source.

That said, their supported versions of Java and Graal are expensive. Some things never change.

Oracle has been in the bed with IBM and Sun regarding Java since version 1.0.

The supported versions of Java and Graal are the same price as any other enterprise product.

They put the effort, someone has to pay for it.

Where are the free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for free beer languages that outperform Java?

Do we need to have free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for every language?

If I understood it correctly, a programming language has some foundational design decisions (including its memory and execution model) to attack a particular set of problems?

What we need are top level JIT, AOT and GC implementations, anything else is just going backwards.

The people capable of achieving that, naturally have bills to pay.

> What we need are top level JIT, AOT and GC implementations, anything else is just going backwards.

Not always. As I aforementioned in another thread, we also need C/C++, Python, Perl, etc. as is since they fill different roles and attack different problems.

I've written Java, C, C++, Python, Perl, PHP. Had to abuse some of them to fit roles which they're not designed to do. At the end of the day, these languages satisfy different needs and solve different problems in different scenarios. Java wouldn't be able to do all of them. Neither C++, nor Python.

As I said, you may like Java but, it's not the king of every programming language. No programming language is king of everything BTW.

C and C++ development is sponsored by the corporations of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google....

PHP was mostly driven by Facebook needs.

None of them is any different from Oracle.

And apparently you fail to understand who has contributed to state of the art implemetnations of AOT compilation to toolchains like LLVM, hint the companies that HN loves to hate, it weren't weekend and late night coders.

> And apparently you fail to understand who has contributed to state of the art implemetnations of AOT compilation to toolchains like LLVM, hint the companies that HN loves to hate, it weren't weekend and late night coders.

I'm pretty aware that nearly all clang/LLVM development is driven by apple.

On the other hand you apparently fail to understand my point of view about Oracle and Java ecosystem. I'm neither against Oracle nor Oracle's development of Java or Java's development in the interest of Oracle mainly.

I'm only against Oracle's motives about making Java a walled garden and usage of this programming language to extort license money from others.

On the other hand, I personally use OpenJDK runtime countless times every day, knowingly or unknowingly. I'm written Java in the past and have no reservations or bad things to say about it. Contrary to your view about other programming languages, I'm pretty neutral against every other programming language.

> C and C++ development is sponsored by the corporations of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google.... PHP was mostly driven by Facebook needs.

There are no news for me here either. Development of a programming language or any tool with input from its users is a non-issue. Also, every user has needs from the products they use, so they will provide feedback and communicate their needs.

The difference, I want to highlight and highlight again, none of these corporations can use C++ or PHP or Python to extort license money from their customers. PHP is owned by Zend, so they may try. C++ is almost public domain now. LLVM is under apache license. Either way I use GCC which is GPL. Python is 20+ years old and is also almost public domain.

Contributing to a tool to get what you want is different from owning a tool and to use it to extort licensing money is different.

Either way, as aforementioned, I have nothing against Java, contrary to your views against other programming languages.

Haters gonna hate.

> I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money because Larry Ellison just thought it was cool tech and they use it a lot. Likewise, GraalVM is so well funded largely because it's cool and Oracle doesn't have many cool R&D projects. It's not clear it's all that commercially driven when you observe that so much of it is open source.

I just hope that it's true. We really need that.

Good on them, they stepped in for Sun when no one else bothered to [0], including Google after screwing them up.

I guess the "community" would love to keep using Java frozen in version 6.

[0] - Only IBM considered it, which from these threads people here wouldn't be happy anyway.

Development of programming languages by corporations is not something I object but, all of the stuff told about Oracle here is correct.

They're not a nice entity unless you pay money to them and they're greedy. They always want more. Also, their hardware can fail in strange ways and they'd shrug it off.

I've met with some nice people who migrated from Sun but they all say that the terms they work are draconian.

I like Java too but, developing a nice language doesn't make Oracle good. Don't get distracted [0].

> I guess the "community" would love to keep using Java frozen in version 6.

Python doesn't stop. C++ doesn't drop. Even brainfuck doesn't stop. It'd have prevailed. OpenJDK is one fruit of the project. After removing patent encumbered image processing stuff, OpenJDK just took off. Yes, it's still part of Oracle in a sense but, OracleJDK is compiled from OpenJDK, not vice versa. Again, don't get distracted [0].

[0]: https://calebhearth.com/talks/dont-get-distracted

Here some news for you, check the names of the companies that put money on the table for Python and C++.

IBM, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Oracle, Amazon, Sony, Nintendo

So much better.

However, the governing bodies of these programming languages are independent from the companies themselves, which is different than Java's position.

These companies employ people who contribute to these programming languages. So the model is somewhat different.

I'm not that oblivious about the real/programming world.

It is naïve to think that the employees of the companies aren't driving their employers agenda, regardless how "independent" those governing bodies are.

Of course but, there are sub-committees which melt all the agendas into a single pot and create solutions which makes everyone happy. Also some of these languages have or had BDFLs.

Oracle's governance is different from this. C++ is an ISO committee. Python has a lot of working groups, etc.

Java is much more centralized when you compare with others.

Nope, IBM, Azul, Amazon, Red-Hat, Alibaba, Twitter, Microsoft also seat at the Java table.

Should I also start listing the dark sides of each company that seats at ISO C and ISO C++ table?

Python working groups also need money from those corporations, and Python is yet to provide the performance levels of Java, so much for free beer development.

> Nope, IBM, Azul, Amazon, Red-Hat, Alibaba, Twitter, Microsoft also seat at the Java table.

I know Java has stakeholders but, what I'm trying to say is the table is at Oracle's HQ, not somewhere else.

> Should I also start listing the dark sides of each company that seats at ISO C and ISO C++ table?

A primer would be nice, actually.

> Python working groups also need money from those corporations, and Python is yet to provide the performance levels of Java, so much for free beer development.

I've never alleged that Python takes no money from corporations and, Python doesn't aim the performance of Java. Their byte-code even doesn't get optimized. Instead Python prefers native libraries for performance. SciPy, NumPy, PyTorch and others obtain native performance on any system they run and, it's enough for Python.

No need to move the goalposts and compare apples to oranges. Python is never meant to replace Java. Java is not meant to replace system programming languages like C/C++. You may like Java and it might help you to pay the bills but, pushing other languages around just because they don't fill your needs from your point of view is not the correct stance.

> A primer would be nice, actually.

Microsoft, the evil company over here, that keeps being compared to Oracle. Several C++20 features like Modules and co-routines were driven by their VC++ implementations.

Apple, the company hated over here by bringing the end of open platforms, without it LLVM and clang wouldn't ever exist.

Google, the spying company and forking Linux with Android, the second major clang and llvm contributor.

IBM and Red-Hat, with their own Linux agenda pushing stuff like systemd hated over here, major GCC contributors.

You are missing the whole point with Java, it isn't about Java, rather all mainstream languages just like Java only move forward with dirty money (from HN point of view), but hey it is cool to hate Oracle.

Hint they are one of the first enterprise contributors to the Linux kernel and have been ever since.

Do you also feel like removing Oracle contributions from the Linux kernel?

And none of the companies you're listing here have been at all litigious about those programming stack contributions like Oracle has been. You're disproving the point that you're trying to make here -- Oracle is uniquely bad about this.

Oh, I love being generalized.

All big companies have a number of dirty deeds in their history, that's right. But I'm not a person who generalizes this to overall companies, incl. Oracle.

I personally don't use Microsoft OSes, however I have several licenses since my family uses them. I also have a personal lincense (albeit it's booted once a year) for some odd application I may need if stars align on the Friday, 13th. OTOH, I always have praised them for their ergonomics research, resulting hardware and their choice for keeping Kinect open back in the day. I won't ever trust them but, I'm not delusional.

I don't use Android devices or Chrome. Only some Google services. However day by day, I'm using their services less and contemplating to switch over to something like Proton. Also I loathe them for making pseudo-open stuff and closing it later. However, they're pioneer of software defined network due to sheer size of their networks.

I have Apple laptops and iPhones but, my main desktops/workstations are vanilla Debian boxes and always will be.

> You are missing the whole point with Java, it isn't about Java, rather all mainstream languages just like Java only move forward with dirty money (from HN point of view), but hey it is cool to hate Oracle.

No, I don't hate Oracle per se. I only hate their money greed. Especially the money greed via Java. I've used their ZFS appliances after they acquire Sun. They were nice up to a point. I applaud them for the enterprise ecosystem around their OracleDB. I like how they managed to fuse Sun's hardware with their software. But I don't like their greed. Maybe this greed is required from their point of view, but I don't like it.

Similarly I'm not keen on nVidia's strong-arming everyone and pushing people around. Also I don't like their arrogance. Yes, CUDA is nice, it's the de-facto standard for now but, it doesn't justify bullying others around.

Microsoft also contributes to Linux Kernel, I'm aware who's doing what.

> Do you also feel like removing Oracle contributions from the Linux kernel?

No, but I feel like you may like replacing it with a Java re-implementation running on a bare-metal HotSpot VM.

Not liking a part of something doesn't need to spread all over that thing. Do you leave your car to a junkyard because you dislike the engine sound at a particular RPM? Do you change your PC because its USBs are a little slow to a similar model? Same idea.