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Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by sneak on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @06:31PM (#25353069)
Not everyone agrees that the freedom to start a SaaS business with GPL software is a "loophole".
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by rakoo on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @07:10PM (#25353499)
The GPL has no element saying it can't be used to start any kind of business, and I don't think any of its defenders has ever said the GPL's goal is to suppress that freedom. It seems the FUD is still going strong.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by sneak on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:50PM (#25355106)
The same people who made the GPL use the term "ASP loophole" and made the AGPL.

Not everyone agrees that the freedom to make a SaaS business with a private GPL fork is a loophole or bug. It seems (from their creation of the AGPL and use of terms like "ASP loophole") that the GPL people do.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by kmeisthax on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:56AM (#25355769)
AGPL isn't pro- or anti-SaaS, though. It just says that you have to provide sources to anyone you grant access to the software over a network. So if you host an AGPL database for someone else, they need access to the source code for that database somehow. But it doesn't prohibit you from hosting the database at all.

It's the perfect license for MongoDB and all these other companies trying to keep Amazon from taking their software and proprietarizing it... but instead they make weirdly restrictive one-off licenses nobody are going to contribute to.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by sneak on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:39AM (#25355971)
AGPL restricts developer freedom simply because they launched a webserver on the same machine. There is a legitimate logical argument that the AGPL is not free software.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by Pet_Ant on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @09:05AM (#25358541)
Copt-left licenses are about preserving the users’ freedom. If we want to maximize developers’ freedom then the freest license is proprietary code where you own all the rights and then you can do anything you want and nobody can do anything about it.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by kmeisthax on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @09:30AM (#25358806)
No, the license that maximizes developer freedom is a permissive license, like Apache, MIT, BSD 3-clause etc. That lets you mix your code with either a proprietary or a copylefted project. Since a lot of Free Software is written by people who just want to solve a problem for themselves, they often just pick the permissive license.

Proprietary code is actually the most restrictive to both users and developers. That's because you can't legally mix proprietary code without a license at every step of the way. Any significantly large proprietary project becomes a mass of third-party dependencies with all sorts of license restrictions that your company is probably ignoring and breaking. Even if you follow all the tenants of those licenses, you don't own your code at the end. A Node-style mess of dependencies becomes ten times worse when each dependency has license restrictions attached to it.

In other forms of media, you generally don't see people try to license 30-50 different properties all at once for the same work, because that means nobody owns anything and the work will be really hard to market internationally. Software almost demands this sort of dependency soup, however, which creates all sorts of unique preservation problems. Whenever a large software project (or game engine) is discontinued, a lot of people wonder why the company who wrote it doesn't just release the code as Free for third parties to maintain. The answer is that in most cases, it's not their code to release.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by webmobdev on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:28PM (#25361094)
> the license that maximizes developer freedom is a permissive license, like Apache, MIT, BSD 3-clause etc.

Depends on what open source philosophy you support - do you believe users should have the right to look at your source code, modify it, and share the modifications with others? In that case only an open source license like the GPL, that protects the USERS right meets this requirement.

Every developer is also a user of their product. Thus, protecting the rights of the USER, automatically protects the rights of the developer too, to further study, develop and customise their code further. On the other hand, permissive license can restrict developers, as others can close-source your open-source work.

If all you want is recognition and credit for your work, then permissive open source licenses are definitely better.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by rakoo on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:55PM (#25361411)
So you're using the world "developer" not as the one creating the project, but as the one retrieving it and modifying it. That's actually what licenses call "users", and copyleft licenses improve your liberties by maximizing the amount of projects that are Free.

What copyleft licenses prohibit is distributing software with less freedom than what you had when you received it, whether you modified it or not. But that's not a developer's issue, that's an issue for someone that hopes to gain something from restricting freedom.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by Iolaum on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:28AM (#25356209)
The whole idea behind copyleft, hence free software as Stalman envisioned it, is to restrict the developer's freedom in favour of the user freedom.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by posguy on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:19AM (#25355621)
Not everyone has trouble with AGPLv3 being the core of their SaaS business.

Just because your core business software is AGPLv3 doesn't mean any other business will be able to build a coherent business model atop it, look at Kazoo by 2600Hz or Iris by Lowes.

Knowing how to properly configure and maintain said code in production, creating integrations with third party vendors (that your competition likely can't interact with on the same terms) and marketing to build mindshare among potential customers is a common way to offer your core software as AGPLv3 yet have no competitors or few competitors use your core software.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by Dylan16807 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:53AM (#25355763)
But the comment you replied to was about the v2->v3 loophole fixing. That has nothing to do with AGPL, it's about bootloader locking.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by chimeracoder on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @07:16PM (#25353560)
> Not everyone agrees that the freedom to start a SaaS business with GPL software is a "loophole".

Neither GPLv3 nor GPLv2 prohibit this.

You're thinking of the AGPL, the first version of which was based on the GPLv2 and released in 2002, years before the FSF announced that they were even beginning work on the GPLv3.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by kazagistar on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:19AM (#25355878)
Thats wrong too. If you use an unmodified version of AGPL software, or just host any modifications in a public repository like github, then you aren't in violation of AGPL, even if the rest of your stack is proprietary and your service paid. How does it prevent SaaS?
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by cma on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @07:31PM (#25353679)
The reason people confuse it is because early work on GPLv3 was going to include similar clauses but they were later abandoned.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ckocagil on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @07:16PM (#25353561)
Are you thinking of AGPL instead of GPLv3?
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by rakoo on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:21PM (#25354137)
AGPL, like any version of GPL (and most if not all open source licenses) does not prohibit anyone from starting a business. It's weird this FUD is still spreading after all this time, after all the debates the community has had already.

AGPL does have restrictions, and it's anyone's preference as to whether they're good or bad, but there has never been an intent to forbid businesses. If anything it's the recent RedisLabs' modules license and the SSPL-style licences that do it: they explicitely contains the wording to indicate that the product can't be used to create a similar product and offer it as a service. Heck, the SSPL says (https://www.mongodb.com/licensing/server-side-public-license):

"If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge, under the terms of this License"

The AGPL tells you that if a user asks for the source code, you must give it to them and them only. The SSPL says that the source code must be publicly available to all, at no cost. It was created specifically to prevent competitors to run MongoDB as a Service. Surely if they had to change it's because the previous license did authorize competitors to do it. Wanna take a guess what the previous license was ?

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by xyzzy_plugh on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:07PM (#25354496)
I can count the number of remotely successful businesses built on AGPL software on one hand.

The AGPL doesn't prohibit starting a business, it makes starting a business prohibitive.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by posguy on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:28AM (#25355664)
OwnCloud, NextCloud, Linphone (their pricelist starts in the 5 figures for support!), etc all run successful businesses off AGPLv3 code. Amazon is notorious for turning AGPLv3 projects and products into SaaS services!

Look at all the SaaS offerings of MongoDB (formerly AGPLv3): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19362919

AGPLv3 doesn't make starting a business prohibitive, arguably forks like NextCloud would not exist if AGPLv3 did not compel codebase users to publish the additional code they wrote to extend OwnCloud

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by hnarn on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @06:42PM (#25353195)
I wonder when this idea really started propagating, was it around when AWS came along? Because by a technical definition I don’t understand why this “loophole” wouldn’t also apply to a hypothetical web host back in the late 90s.