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Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by craftinator on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:10PM (#25340244)
Perhaps preparing for conflict is the natural response to interacting with the police in the US, because that is what the police do before barging into your home and interacting with you. I'd lose my mind if some swine pointed a gun at my child. A message to police: don't do that, and you won't have a reason to be armed around me.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by Mirioron on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:16PM (#25340303)
>I'd lose my mind if some swine pointed a gun at my child.

I wonder if things like this are what honor duels were about in the past? A way to semi-legally call out someone personally with potentially severe consequences.

Pointing a gun at a kid in a situation like this seems like it should be punishable by itself.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by SauciestGNU on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:32PM (#25340958)
We need to codify a right to self defense against the police. Too many situations like this exist where the police place others in mortal danger. In a situation like this were the armed party not police it would be unquestionably legal for the victim to respond with deadly force. Police no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt and they deserve no special legal protections when they run around assaulting people with deadly weapons.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:23PM (#25341765)
An alternative is to eliminate or reduce qualified immunity.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:25AM (#25346389)
Who was in mortal danger? The video showed no evidence of a gun being aimed at anyone, simply up the stairs. It's also not assault unless there's motive. Without a physical or verbal act indicating unlawful use or potential use of violence, it would be hard to prove assault. (You might be surprised when you look up case law on this)

Your civilian scenario isn't exactly congruent because you are missing the legal authority point. If you are a civilian with the authority to search a building (your house when you hear a noise at night for example), then you you would be justified in clearing the building in the same way the police did. The response of deadly force depends on if there are alternatives to that use of force (and greatly varies by state). In this case, the alternative to the occupant using deadly force is to comply with the warrant, and if necessary, sue in court for any damages.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by lawnchair_larry on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:07PM (#25341232)
Of course they do. There are plenty of developing and underdeveloped countries where that’s how it works. Go see how well that works out for them.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by triceratops on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @04:28PM (#25351609)
> There are plenty of developing and underdeveloped countries where that’s how it works.

My impression of developing countries was that police are vicious, brutal, and corrupt by default. As opposed to the US where bad cops are the exception. And they have very little oversight. Which countries are you talking about where that's not the case?

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:46PM (#25340582)
> I'd lose my mind if some swine pointed a gun at my child.

I understand the sentiment. I really do. But that is the wrong response when someone is pointing a gun at you. That’s how’s your child loses their father or mother.

Don’t forget that police are trained to shoot to kill. There is no training for “shoot to injure” ... the logic being that if you are injured, you can reach into your clothes and pull out a gun, potentially killing the officer who shot you.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by craftlnator on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:03PM (#25341626)
I appreciate your sentiment, but, as a former Marine with a little combat experience, I probably have a bit more understanding of this type of situation than you (statistically likely). You say it's the "wrong response"; I've seen people who have their families put under threat of death; they actually lose it. It's not some choice of bravado, not an honor thing, it's a physiological reaction to the extreme emotional stress.

You may not understand this type of situation, but I've experienced the feeling of going from a safe, comfortable environment to being in pain and seeing friends hurt, all in a split second; even with Marine Corps training, I was ready to snap. My hands were shaking, there was a roaring in my ears, and I was ready to kill the first threat I saw. That situation, in my home, with my family? It isn't a choice. We are biological creatures, and there are some reactions that are just biological. It's easy to play armchair general and discount all of the human factors.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:20PM (#25341736)
> We are biological creatures, and there are some reactions that are just biological

I understand and I assume you have weapons stashed around your residence in case of these kind of encounters.

But this family almost certainly did not. If you watch the video, the gun is pointing upstairs, presumably at the husband and children. I doubt the husband has a firearm handy or a means to defend himself for this situation.

So his emotional response to attack without proper weaponry is foolish, unless on the odd chance he’s a trained ninja like you :)

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by craftlnator on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:47PM (#25341955)
I think I did a poor job in highlighting the meat of my response from the rest. The point is not about what I would do, or could do, in a situation like that. The point was that people don't behave rationally in situations like that; not because they're fools, or weak, or immature; it's because they are having a physiological response to extreme emotional trauma. If they don't, they are textbook sociopaths, or have been put through large amounts of emotional conditioning.

Read through your comment: "I doubt the husband has a firearm handy or a means to defend himself for this situation. So his emotional response to attack without proper weaponry is foolish"

This point of view is speculative, it doesn't come from experience (or even a basic psychological understanding). People do NOT function that way. Maybe they do when playing Call of Duty or watching a Die Hard movie, but not in real life. I can't really impart what it feels like in that sort of situation, but I hope you never have to experience it. You end up needing therapy.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:57PM (#25340686)
Yep, the correct response is comply, document everything, hire a civil lawyer. Cities spend 10s to 100s of millions to settle police lawsuits every year. Might as well get your cut.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by matheusmoreira on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:39AM (#25342285)
If some insane police officer with no trigger discipline is dumb enough to point his gun at an unarmed child, the child's parents are justified in shooting him dead. If the officer reacts with lethal force, he should be charged with murder.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by vharuck on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:42PM (#25341913)
>There is no training for “shoot to injure” ... the logic being that if you are injured, you can reach into your clothes and pull out a gun, potentially killing the officer who shot you.

I'd have thought the logic is, "If you want to injure, use a baton. Guns are tools for killing."

Teaching "shoot to injure" would be reckless considering the chances a "wounding" shot ends up killing somebody.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by sokoloff on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:05PM (#25340747)
Most police (and self-defense) training is "shoot to stop".
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:57PM (#25341581)
That’s a euphemism.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by Ancapistani on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:45PM (#25341930)
I understand where you’re coming from, but it really isn’t.

Most training is to shoot “center of mass”. That often kills, yes, but if the goal was to kill (or even kill quickly), tactics like the “Mozambique drill” - two shots center of mass and one shot to the head - would be standard. It’s not. It’s specifically used as training for exceptional circumstances.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by sokoloff on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:26PM (#25348407)
Exactly. Law enforcement or self-defense training does not train to put a security round into the head of a downed subject (shoot to kill training), but rather to summon/render medical aid once the threat has been stopped (shoot to stop training).
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by Simulacra on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:11PM (#25340798)
What’s wrong with just doing as the police say?
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by thepasswordis on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:29PM (#25340443)
>I'd lose my mind if some swine pointed a gun at my child.

How to avoid this:

1) When they show up at your house with a search warrant, let them execute it.

That's it.