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Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by jaclaz on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:24AM (#25332981)
In Europe there is a UNI norm, dating back to 1974 or so, mandating the need of both an evacuation and an air inlet in case of gas stoves.

Even if it is essentially for safety, it has (where implemented correctly) the side effect (advantage in this case) of creating a flux of fresh air.

Where this is not needed by the norms (electric stoves and similar), expecially in modern "energy saving" houses, problems of humidity and mold often arise.

As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning, nowadays - for one reason or the other - most people do not do this and - coupled with the increased air tightness of windows and doors - makes mechanical ventilation a need.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by arp242 on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:59AM (#25333990)
I've seen apartments and office buildings where it's literally impossible to open windows, as well as quite a few where you could only open the windows by a few cm.

I worked in an office building without windows that could open years ago, and I got a headache around 2pm every day. It had some mechanical ventilation, but it's not really the same as actual fresh air. It was by far the most horrible office I've ever worked at.

A lot of people also don't like it when I open windows for a bit to let some fresh air in, even when the air is clearly stale and musty. I don't know why people are so opposed to opening windows. My pet theory is that it's a subconscious psychological connection to a certain piece of software :-)

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by snazz on Monday December 07, 2020 @02:04PM (#25335792)
> I don't know why people are so opposed to opening windows.

I'm guessing it's that people don't like wasting or letting out air that's been heated, cooled, humidified, or dehumidified. I live in a place that gets all four seasons and my house is completely sealed up except for during a few weeks when the outdoor temperature is just a bit cooler than the indoor ambient temperature.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by Izkata on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:22PM (#25336903)
It also lets in the bugs and allergy triggers.

My head has generally been clearer since I moved into the city and kept the windows closed, compared to suburbs or city with open windows.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by rsync on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:30AM (#25333045)
"As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning ..."

... and also their children and grandchildren because who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?

Even while living in Minneapolis, in the dead of winter, we still cleared the air each day. I guess forced air heating made that relatively pain-free since you can reheat the entire house very quickly ...

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by NikolaNovak on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:42AM (#25333206)
>>who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?

FWIW - Many places/people. Most, in my anecdotal experience.

- I've seen numerous condos in north america and Europe that do not have effectively openable windows, certainly not in quantity to properly vent the entire unit. So you couldn't if you wanted to.

- Some cultures have very differing perspectives; where I'm from, interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly. You will NOT open two windows at the same time anywhere in the house, ever, period. If any window happens to be open and a kid opens the front door, they'll be yelled at to close it ASAP lest... I dunno, something about their lower back?

- But most people I've spoken to / lived with, across countries and continents just don't bother / it doesn't occur to them. It's not a thing (this includes living with three host families in Minnesota in the 90's - none of them opened their windows much if at all, trusting their HVAC to take care of them. Two of them were medical professionals.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by Mediterraneo10 on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:56AM (#25333941)
> where I'm from, interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly.

In Romania, too, popular belief considers drafts to be a dangerous cause of illness, but at least in my own experience, opening all the windows in the morning is an exception. Airing out the house daily in winter is seen as a healthful thing to do by many if not most families... but of course once all the windows are closed again, there shouldn't be the slightest hint of a draft anywhere in the house.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by SRTP on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:03AM (#25333419)
> interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly

Interesting! Never heard this before. Where are you from, if I may ask?

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by NikolaNovak on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:30AM (#25333687)
I think this article describes it well, including the absolute cultural prevalence, belief, and influence :). It is written in regard to a single country (Croatia) but applies to Balkans and few other parts of Europe as well:

https://zablogreb.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/propuh-or-the-gre...

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by jacobush on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:08PM (#25334105)
In Sweden too, at least a generation back or two, it was like this.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by soared on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:50AM (#25333882)
Incredibly interesting, thanks!
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by newsbinator on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:31AM (#25333693)
Sounds like Eastern Europe to me.

My family members used to yell at me for sitting down on a stone fence or concrete bench, because something something cold stone ... lower back / kidney disease.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by chihuahua on Monday December 07, 2020 @01:24PM (#25335221)
The same irrational belief is common in Germany as well. Cold air is thought to cause things like the common cold and bronchitis.

Some people would feel a slight draft indoors and immediately start yelling for the windows to be closed.

I knew a very wealthy guy in Germany who bought a Mercedes 560SEL - at the time, the top-of-the-line model. He ordered it without air conditioning because he didn't want to get bronchitis.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by User23 on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:12PM (#25337616)
“Es zieht!”
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by core-questions on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:46AM (#25333838)
> You will NOT open two windows at the same time anywhere in the house, ever, period.

This makes literally zero sense. It's even stupider than Korean Fan Death.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by bserge on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:09PM (#25334126)
Oh it really is. I grew up with the bs, and people don't seem to believe you when you tell them that it's no worse than wind blowing on the street.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by NikolaNovak on Monday December 07, 2020 @02:38PM (#25336209)
It's analogous, irrational, and nonsensical from our perspective, so I'd agree.

(I think the article I linked later demonstrates some interesting and radically differing cultural assumptions)

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by jyriand on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:00PM (#25334006)
My mother is constantly complaining that apartment is cold, and then I close the window.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by throwaway0a5e on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:14AM (#25333508)
>because who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?

Whoever paying to heat the building in question isn't gonna do this.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by awild on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:40AM (#25333787)
Venting significantly reduces the humidity of your air, driving down the heat capacity of it. Meaning you will need less energy to heat up the room.

This thread seems to give a great overview of all interactions: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45349/how-air-hu....

It's actually common part of contracts in Germany that you have to vent at least 10min per day through 2 different rooms etc.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by throwaway0a5e on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:18PM (#25334254)
You own link points out that the difference between humid and dry air in terms of heat capacity is a low single digit percent. Unless you can reduce the humidity from "a lot" to "basically nothing" and lose only a couple of degrees in the process (highly unlikely, completely impossible if your method consists of opening windows/doors in the winter) it is going to cost more energy to vent out the humidity and heat dry air than it is to just heat the humid air that's already near temp.

Just because a rental contract includes a clause doesn't make the intentions of that clause consistent with reality.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by DubiousPusher on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:07PM (#25334090)
Furnaces dry out the air. Human activity can contribute moisture to the air. But the net effect is usually to leave the interior air dryer than the exterior air. Depending greatly on your lavatory ventilation.

Where I live, allowing outside air in greatly increases the inside humidity. And I would guess this is true for most people given the widespread complaints of dry winter skin and bloody noses. Which is the product of increased furnace operation.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by core-questions on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:47AM (#25333860)
> Venting significantly reduces the humidity of your air

Even when it's raining outside, etc?

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by bigbubba on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:04PM (#25334064)
If it's raining, then obviously it's not very cold outside. Unless you're in the habit of cranking your furnace up to tropical temperatures I guess. For me, I keep the temperature above freezing inside but otherwise? I put on a sweater and open the window. It's cheaper, refreshing, and better for the environment. Right now it's 8 C outside; with the window open and a sweater on, I'm as comfy as a clam.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by DubiousPusher on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:14PM (#25334182)
Ok but you must that this is unusual and most people keep their thermostat around 21 C.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by bigbubba on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:26PM (#25334362)
I don't know, it's typical for my family. It seems inappropriate to me for people to set their furnace so high just so they can dress like it's summer in the winter.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by zephyrthenoble on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:35AM (#25333123)
I have never "cleared the air."
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by jaclaz on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:24AM (#25344698)
Besides the advantage of air heating (that gives the illusion of reheating the house [1])there are a lot of differences in the way houses are built.

Generally speaking "traditional" houses in Europe (made with brick or stone walls) tend to have rather poor insulation but very high termal mass, as opposed to more modern houses (and to the essentially wood/timber based houses in north America) that have a higher insulation but very low thermal mass.

In high thermal mass houses completely changing the air does not lower that much the temperature as as soon as you re-close the windows the air is re-heated by walls, ceilings and floor radiating the heat they accumulated before.

[1] whilst in reality it only re-heats the air

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by graeme on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:44AM (#25333821)
I live in Canada and keep a window open a crack in winter to vent the place. It is considered highly eccentric.

I know my grandmother did it but people seem to have lost the habit. I’ve only heard of it being widespread in Germany.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by tafda on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:04PM (#25334057)
I’ve heard this usually described as a German custom “lüften”, conveniently in line with Covid guidance.

Would be interesting to see a world map of daily clear-the-air adoption. I hadn’t heard of it before this year.

https://welcometogermerica.com/2018/12/how-to-air-out-a-room...

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by themikesanto on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:56AM (#25333356)
Never heard of people doing this.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by coldpie on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:13AM (#25333505)
I've lived in the Twin Cities my whole life and have never heard of or done this.
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by vram22 on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:58AM (#25333974)
> As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning

This is a common practice (except in very cold or highly polluted parts of India) even today - and not just briefly, either - windows are often open until evening, until a bit before mosquito entering time. And some people again open windows after 8 pm or so, because the lore is that mosquitoes won't move much after that. But that is oldish stuff, and it can be different these days.

And even in those colder or more polluted areas, some people still do it.

Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by valarauko on Monday December 07, 2020 @02:55PM (#25336465)
Lots of Indian homes have removable mosquito mesh on their windows, so you can keep your windows open all day (and night).
Re:Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers o... by vram22 on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:48PM (#25338793)
Right, it is called netlon, and some even have it as fixed mesh. Didn't think to mention that earlier.