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Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by ridaj on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:04PM (#25319956)
It makes sense to me about as much as the trade in ancient coins, stamps, and other collectibles. These are reasonable asset classes if you like gambling, with a somewhat fixed supply, not a lot of industrial applications, and wild price fluctuations based entirely on subjective appreciation. Bitcoin is more liquid but otherwise the price dynamic looks about the same...
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by scoopertrooper on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:20PM (#25320058)
I guess the key difference is that less startups have bilked investors by peddling fantastical dreams of post-fiat ancient coin based economies.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by mumblemumble on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:00PM (#25320323)
I guess it depends on how you define "startup." If it specifically means VC backed tech firms, sure, almost tautologically so. If not, well, I've been aware of dodgy ads for precious metals and coins and suchlike in the backs of magazines for as long as I've known how to read.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by superkuh on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:47PM (#25320222)
Hardly. The finance bros came from traditional finance based on fiat. That's where the majority of bilking still goes on. All of us using it as a currency since the start are still here. Sure, it's nice that it's worth over 9000 now but what matters to me is being able to send and receive money myself. Besides physical cash there's nothing like it.

And unlike other currencies this one doesn't require the energy expenditures of a full standing army or the diplomatic trades to enter into protection with someone who has one. Seen through that lens bitcoin is absolutely green.

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by scoopertrooper on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:13PM (#25320402)
> Hardly. The finance bros came from traditional finance based on fiat. That's where the majority of bilking still goes on.

I don't think that's a substantiated claim, but even if it were true, the lack of regulation in the *coin sphere made a fertile breeding ground for scammers from wherever they originated.

> but what matters to me is being able to send and receive money myself.

Yourself and billions of computing hours that could be doing stuff like protein folding or climate modelling.

> And unlike other currencies this one doesn't require the energy expenditures of a full standing army or the diplomatic trades to enter into protection with someone who has one. Seen through that lens bitcoin is absolutely green.

Are you suggesting that if not for fiat money then there would be no need for standing armies? Like we'd all just join hands: Russia would hand back Crimea, Pakistan and India would grant Kashmir independence, Iran and Saudi Arabia would realise they practice essentially the same religion, and the former states of Yugoslavia would hold the world's largest pancake breakfast? If not, then you can not attribute the environmental impact of maintaining militaries to fiat.

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by bawolff on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:39PM (#25320163)
Maybe less tech startups, but im pretty sure a bunch of people popped up to bilk other people out of their money during the beenie baby craze.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by scoopertrooper on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:42PM (#25320197)
I'm not sure if you're defending bitcoin or comparing people buying it to crazed beanie baby collectors. At least, nobody was talking about a beanie baby based financial system at the time - however adorable it may have been.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by bawolff on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:54PM (#25320277)
I don't think bitcoin should be entirely dismissed as a scam (its more complex than that), but if we're going to compare it to a scam (and there are definitely plenty of scammers in the bitcoin ecosystem), i think its important to remember that neither scams nor speculative bubbles are new to human history.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by scoopertrooper on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:21PM (#25320448)
The important innovation of Bitcoin (and the like) was that it democratised the ability to scam. A band of techno-utopians created a technology (ideology?) that made it much easier and cheaper to empty the pockets of the gullible.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by SrslyJosh on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:44PM (#25320207)
That's a pretty good comparison, because, like the energy and custom hardware thrown at bitcoin, beanie babies are also intrinsically useless at the scale they were sold.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by johannes1234321 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:48PM (#25320228)
Oh, there is lots of shady business happening around coins, not only but also gold coins ...
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by root_axis on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:48PM (#25320229)
Consider pokemon cards as an alternative example to beanie babies.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by sesuximo on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:12PM (#25320009)
AFAIK, stamps don’t use our resources enough to move prices for energy/chips/etc
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by ridaj on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:22PM (#25320065)
Right. It's scaled up. I suppose that if people became suddenly interested in old stamps to the tune of billions of dollars, stamp-dealing would also start competing for resources with the rest of the economy.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by sesuximo on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:33PM (#25320134)
I think that’s wrong for a few reasons....

- a stamp uses a small amount of resources no matter how many stamps you want (more stamps may even be cheaper from economies of scale).

- Bitcoin inherently relies on expensive computation to provide safety

- each Bitcoin is more expensive than the last due to increasingly difficult nonces.

- (dumb edge case) you can’t make old stamps so it’s hard to image using a lot of resources to find/make them. Obv not true for other products

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by bawolff on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:40PM (#25320182)
> each Bitcoin is more expensive than the last due to increasingly difficult nonces.

Bitcoin difficulty can change in either direction.

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by toolz on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:47PM (#25320224)
bitcoin uses less resources than traditional banking. I think people should stop judging it in a vacuum and instead speak in relative terms. If energy use is a concern then fiat is the greater offender. https://bitcoinist.com/banks-consume-energy-bitcoin/

further crypto would be a much more flexible domain at working towards reducing carbon emission than deeply embedded and slow changing fiat systems

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by root_axis on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:49PM (#25320239)
Bitcoin does not replace traditional banking even if you view it as a legitimate currency.
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by bingbong123 on Sunday December 06, 2020 @10:03AM (#25323863)
Why not? Do you think every financial service offered by traditional banks can't be coded and made more efficient using internet-native money (bitcoin)?

If so, what services can't? People already use BTC as collateral for loans/mortgages ...which are two of the riskiest activities traditional banks engage in.

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by sesuximo on Saturday December 05, 2020 @09:09PM (#25320379)
Banks use way less energy per customer
Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by bingbong123 on Sunday December 06, 2020 @10:11AM (#25323922)
I've walked into many semi-empty downtown brick and mortar banks with 5-10 idle employees, you want to continue paying that "innefficiency tax" in every transaction/loan/wire/credit-card/etc...?

I don't think people really think through the reason there is a 20% tax on financial activity that goes through traditional banking system.

Re:Bitcoin still makes no sense by yownie on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:00PM (#25320910)
8 years vs 150 years of technology though