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Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by hezag on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:56AM (#25312168)
I did not read the paper (just like most people here), but by the title — “On the Dangers of Stochastic Parrots: Can Language Models Be Too Big?” — it does not look like the CO2 emissions thing is the main topic of this research.

BTW, "Stochastic Parrots" is a very descriptive name for the problem

> Moreover, because the training datasets are so large, it’s hard to audit them to check for these embedded biases. “A methodology that relies on datasets too large to document is therefore inherently risky,” the researchers conclude. “While documentation allows for potential accountability, [...] undocumented training data perpetuates harm without recourse.”

Since these models are being applied in a lot of fields that directly affects the life of millions of people, this is a very important and underdiscussed problem.

I really want to read the paper.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by sanxiyn on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:01AM (#25312192)
> Since these models are being applied in a lot of fields that directly affects the life of millions of people

In particular, it is being applied right now to rank Google search results, and probably responsible for lots and lots of Google's profit. You should be skeptical of Google's appraisal of the paper that is material to Google's profit.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by visarga on Saturday December 05, 2020 @03:59AM (#25312949)
I bet you don't need to evaluate the NLP model when you have direct access to the end result, Google Search.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by throwaway_hare on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:05PM (#25319966)
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by Veedrac on Saturday December 05, 2020 @10:57AM (#25315439)
The first page was leaked. The environmental angle was a significant part of it, particularly the claim that environmental and financial costs ‘doubly punishes marginalized communities’.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by lokar on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:10AM (#25315553)
Didn't google get to carbon neutral?
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by Veedrac on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:23AM (#25315671)
Yes, since 2007.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by visarga on Saturday December 05, 2020 @05:42AM (#25313464)
> BTW, "Stochastic Parrots" is a very descriptive name for the problem

Meh, both parrots and language models are inferior to humans in producing language, but one is more useful than the other. And real parrots are also stochastic, like all living things.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by basicneo on Saturday December 05, 2020 @06:03AM (#25313575)
Analogies aren't meant to withhold careful scrutiny. They're suggestive.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by zepto on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:08AM (#25315533)
Real parrots are clearly more useful.

After the stochastic parrots have caused the collapse of civilization, we can eat the real parrots.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:22PM (#25316270)
>> And real parrots are also stochastic, like all living things.

I don't understand how living things are "stochasic". Can you please elaborate on the matter?

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by thu2111 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @08:43AM (#25314497)
Why? It sounds like ideologically driven circular reasoning. If you train an AI on the largest dataset it's possible to obtain then you have, almost by definition, done the most you can to avoid bias of any sort: the model will learn the most accurate representation of reality it can given the data available.

Gebru is the type of person who defines "bias" as anything that isn't sufficiently positive towards people who look like herself, not the usual definition of a deviation from reality as exists. Having encountered AI "fairness" and "bias" papers (words quoted because the words aren't used with their dictionary definitions), it's not even clear to me they should count as research at all, let alone be worth reading. They take as the starting premise that anything a model learns about the world that is politically incorrect is a bug, and go downhill from there.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by kevinventullo on Saturday December 05, 2020 @10:00AM (#25315002)
If you train an AI on the largest dataset it's possible to obtain then you have, almost by definition, done the most you can to avoid bias of any sort

All politics aside, this is not even true for toy ML problems. If I’m trying to do digit recognition and “all the data I can find” is a billion hand-written 0’s and a million hand-written 1’s through 9’s, naively training on that data will yield a model that’s pretty close to guessing 0 every time.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by thu2111 on Saturday December 05, 2020 @11:44AM (#25315853)
We're talking about tech firms that have access to the entire internet and use it. Hypothetical examples involving imaginary datasets that nobody would use don't prove anything relevant. And note that my argument is not about whether you actually avoid bias, it's about whether you've done the most you can do to avoid it. If you used all the data you've got, then you've done the most you can, even if for some reason the data you've got isn't any good.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by d_e_solomon on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:13PM (#25316184)
> We're talking about tech firms that have access to the entire internet and use it.

I think you're trying to say that a large enough dataset will be free of bias. I don't see how that follows. If I train a model on home mortgage decisions, I will replicate the bias on that currently exists on that dataset - https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2020/01/racial-discrim... - unless there are conscientious choices to reduce that bias.

Researchers in ethics in ML are specifically trying to enable tech companies to do a better job of not replicating bias and justifiably point out where that is occurring.

Third, I would argue that applying an ML model to do something faster if it replicates the bias of a previously human decision is even worse. The bias has taken the human element completely out and systematized the bias and made it possible with even less friction.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by bisectable on Sunday December 06, 2020 @03:37AM (#25322071)
Given the current public discourse climate in academia, where 99% of the researchers are politically left or extreme left, I recommend a grain of salt for any research that makes claims racial discrimination. The report you quote has at least a couple of strange holes. The paper itself is behind a paywall, thus beyond mere mortals reach.

> For example, in about 10% audits in which a white and an African-American auditor were sent to apply for the same unit after 2005, the white auditor was recommended more units than the African-American auditor. These trends hold in both the large HUD (Housing and Urban Development)-sponsored housing audits, which others have examined with similar findings to us, and in smaller correspondence studies

They fail to mention how large is the gap. Is the white auditor recommended 102 vs the black auditor 97, or 150 vs 50, or 200 vs 3? Without such critical information it is hard to form an opinion, unless one already has a large bias in accepting discrimination narratives uncritically.

> In the mortgage market the researchers found that racial gaps in loan denial have declined only slightly, and racial gaps in mortgage cost have not declined at all, suggesting persistent racial discrimination. Black and Hispanic borrowers are more likely to be rejected when they apply for a loan and are more likely to receive a high-cost mortgage.

They fail to mention the magic words 'when controlled for income'. America has a huge income disparity problem, which is conveniently forgotten behind the ongoing race (and gender) hucksterism. Assuming we'd wave a magic wand and fix all disparities across visible populations tomorrow, it will still not fix the fact that huge income disparities exist between individuals. Google engineers and researchers get paid 5 times the median national income or more, and (senior) Google management in the 10x to 1000x range. The vast majority of the population is stuck in dead end precarious jobs, with little social mobility, one medical emergency from bankruptcy.

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by joehl on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:42PM (#25348671)
In causal modelling thou shallst not control by consequences of the causal treatment (the causal treatment here is being born black). Read your Rubin&Rosenbaum.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by YeGoblynQueenne on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:19PM (#25316243)
>> Gebru is the type of person who defines "bias" as anything that isn't sufficiently positive towards people who look like herself, not the usual definition of a deviation from reality as exists.

I haven't seen this "usual definition" of bias as a "deviation from reality" that you give anywhere before. Can you say where it is coming from?

Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by jart on Sunday December 06, 2020 @10:08AM (#25323901)
The greatest struggle facing the tech elite today is how to use the proletariat's data to train an artificial intelligence that doesn't inherit the proletariat's beliefs.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by thu2111 on Sunday December 06, 2020 @01:34PM (#25325450)
Pithy and concise, I like it. That's exactly it.
Re:We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google by joehl on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:49PM (#25348784)
If your data set is biased for the purpose of answering your question, then having more data doesn't make things better. In this case 'big data' just becomes 'big bias'. Go to wikipedia and read on Simpsons Paradox.