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Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by dalben on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:21AM (#25303204)
I find this rather scary - the internet is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by no_wizard on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:39AM (#25303457)
I’ve always been of the mind that the USPS should provide an official government email of sorts. Something you sign up for in person or in some other verifiable way and that is your email address that you can use for government services and the like. This would ensure you have an email that exists for public service and is managed accordingly

Bit of a pipe dream however I think the idea has real merit

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by sbeller on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:47AM (#25303583)
They tried something like that in Germany, but they got it wrong in the details:

Once you elect to communicate via this government blessed email, you are basically forced to check that email everyday notwithstanding your ability (e.g. when your computer/internet breaks) as the communication is considered delivered once it hits your (e-)mail box.

For example if you are summoned to court (and it is a felony to not show up), I'd think I'd prefer snail mail for those communications, as I'd trust my "tech stack" of a physical mail box on the receiving side a bit more than some government blessed email provider.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by KingMachiavelli on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:55AM (#25303701)
That sounds more like mostly a technical problem. You could simply configure forwarding from your gov. email account to your personal one. You could create filters to only care about certain domains to prevent spam.

It's still a lot easier to check email than walk to a mailbox daily. But the best solution is probably to default to both email & mail such that the email can be send when the letter is sent but neither would be considered a delivered message until the letter itself was delivered.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:48AM (#25303611)
Good point.

Also, once spammers/scammers get ahold of it (I give it ten minutes), you are truly screwed.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by no_wizard on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:57AM (#25303734)
I think if you limited it to only sanctioned communications you'd limit this problem quickly (think only .gov email addresses can email it, for instance, and/or other sanctioned domains)

If we wanted to, we should provide two emails to the general public. A restricted communications one following the rules I suggest above, and perhaps a more general purpose one for those who want to use that, with the only requirement that you already signed up for the first one).

I know that's convoluted. It's just one idea of course. I think we could deal with this problem.

Also the gov being the gov, they could just mandate Google provide spam filter protections or something.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by erk__ on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:56AM (#25312446)
I think the Danish version of this, "E-boks", have been mandated for some years and it mostly works fine. There are a few issues now and then and it is difficult for the older population but I think that it overall have worked fine. And by far most people agree with it here.

Although this is not true email but a special message system that needs two factor auth to log in.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by GoblinSlayer on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:16PM (#25304962)
Huh? I check my paper mail box once per month.

>For example if you are summoned to court

Aren't such thing delivered under signature?

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by sbeller on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:51PM (#25305460)
exactly. How would that work in an electronic setting?
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by toomuchtodo on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:44AM (#25303540)
This is not a pipe dream at all. Call your Congressional rep and ask for legislation to provide this. Asking only costs your time, and you're on the right track (USPS providing this service, so they can do in-person verifications). This would then enable more government services to move to email first for correspondence, but care would need to be taken that comms fall back to phone or physical mail for exceptions (for example, FCC should fall back to SMS and/or paper mail if email bounces back).
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by Simulacra on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:52AM (#25303658)
...and this is what you'll get back because I used to write responses like these for a congressional office for years:

Thank you toomuchtodo for writing to me about government services to move to email first for correspondence. As you know, I have always supported government accountability and efficiency, and will certainly consider this should legislation come up about it. Please continue to keep me informed about the issues that are important to you. Sincerely, your Congressional Representative.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by tzs on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:56AM (#25304642)
> This is not a pipe dream at all. Call your Congressional rep and ask for legislation to provide this. Asking only costs your time, and you're on the right track (USPS providing this service, so they can do in-person verifications).

Do that, but go a little farther.

You should be able to register with the USPS to get a universal ID (UID), and then associate both a mailing address and an email address with that UID.

USPS would then provide both an email address and virtual mailing address that incorporate the UID. Email sent to that email address would forward to the real email address associated with the UID, and physical mail sent to the virtual mailing address would be delivered to the associated physical mailing address.

I'd like to see them also offer an ID verification service, that provides a way for you to verify to a third party that you control a particular UID. This could provide a robust account recovery mechanism for other services.

Right now, if an account at some service gets hijacked, or you simply forget or lose your credentials, recovery usually depends on SMS or on email. The problem with those is that they too can be hijacked, and their recovery also depends on SMS or email. You end up with a tangled mess of dependencies.

A way to fix this is to organize account recovery as a tree. At the root you have some service where recovery requires that you physically show up at their office and present proof of identity, such as a passport.

Then directly under the root you might have your main email account or your main mobile phone account. Account recovery for those would involve verifying your identity with the root.

Below those, you might have your social media accounts, your utility accounts, and so on. Recovery for those would involved verifying you via your mail email or main mobile number.

How you organize it is up to you. They key, though, is to have something at the top that you can always recover, and make everything else be ultimately recoverable through that. (I'd probably personally do a 5 level tree: root; domain registrars; main email; mobile phone; everything else).

USPS would be good for the root because they have offices all over the country. Most people can get to a USPS office without too much hardship. (Banks would also be a good option for root identity providers).

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by toomuchtodo on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:11PM (#25304899)
Agree entirely! https://login.gov already exists. Extend it with PKI and smartcards (Estonia National ID style [1]). Have USPS be a trust anchor as well as integrate with Login.gov as an identity provider, and so on.

[1] https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/id-card/

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:47AM (#25303589)
Not a pipe dream. I think it would be a marvelous public utility, and one that might keep the USPS a bit more solvent (think addons).

But...I think that most of us are familiar with how good the Government is at running these kinds of efforts.

That said, it is a quasi-private effort, and might actually be able to field a decent team.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by vipa123 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:47AM (#25303580)
Write your representatives, start a grassroots movement to get usps to offer email addresses, the future is created by those who show up.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by dlkinney on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:37AM (#25303413)
While I have objections to internet-based government interaction, access is not one I worry much about.

We have government-funded libraries all across the country that provide internet access. While I believe that mail should always be an option, ease of access is something that I think is over-valued when it comes to government.

That's not to say that I don't appreciate convenience. Convenience and a broad range of availability are good things. But at the same time, I don't hold the belief that government owes us convenience.

So with that said, and excepting arguments of convenience of availability of internet, I think it's hard to make the case that someone may be excluded just because they don't have internet. Used to be some people had to ride half a day on a horse to conduct some government business. To me, that is the baseline, and anything beyond that is a privileged blessing, NOT a necessity.

I know this is a very unpopular opinion.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by WarChortle on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:17AM (#25304002)
Used to be some people had to ride half a day on a horse to conduct some government business. To me, that is the baseline, and anything beyond that is a privileged blessing, NOT a necessity.

I'm sorry what? This isn't the 1800's anymore, this way of thinking just astounds me. How can you anyone look at our modern times and say as long as your a half days horse ride away from a government office you got everything you need. You're ignoring that fact most people don't even have horses. Cars have existed for over 100 years now. You could at-least factor that into your baseline.

If we never move the baseline up then we lose the will to advance. We strip the upward mobility of our poorer citizens.

ease of access is something that I think is over-valued when it comes to government

The harder it is for your average citizen to due something the less likely they are to do it. It discriminates against the people who need help the most and concentrates power into fewer and fewer hands.

Take starting a Business for example, the harder it is the less people will do it. This is bad for our economy and society as a whole. Less small businesses means less jobs, less ways for people to lift themselves out of poverty. The more difficult Government is to interface with the more time someone has to devote to dealing with it. It means less time to focus on education or a small business, or their family, or health. It means they are more likely to be stuck where they are.

Ease of Access to Government resources can be directly correlated to some peoples quality of life. Think of Food stamps or welfare to the people who need it.

I think it's hard to make the case that someone may be excluded just because they don't have internet

No, its pretty easy, most libraries have been closed due to Covid. Many people might not have reliable access to the internet atm. Which in the supposed best country on Earth is scary.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by silicon2401 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:32AM (#25304235)
With statements like this, I can't help but wonder what the person's background is. Not to make an ad hominem, but because the stance seems simply unaware of the realities of life for a lot of people. I've lived in Baltimore, where simply walking around can be extremely dangerous. I also had friends growing up who couldn't afford to pay for bus rides in our hometown (which were less than $2).

If walking to the library literally entails putting your life and property at risk, and you can't afford public transportation, how would you not consider that somebody being excluded just due to not having internet at home?

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by travisporter on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:57AM (#25303728)
This is an unpopular opinion for sure!

- Although much improved over the last decade, library internet is still quite slow and often the desktop computers are riddled with spyware. Yeah, everyone has cell phones, but a temporarily homeless person should still be able to do coursework (obviously a very naive example but still happens)

- Here's an exaggerated counterargument to your convenience argument: What if you had to travel to your state capital to vote or register for a marriage license?

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by shuntress on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:54AM (#25304609)
Something having been worse in the past is not a good reason to prevent improvement.

If you want to make the case that an implicitly enforced delay somehow improves the service then you should provide an actual argument.

Otherwise this is basically: "Things used to be bad and I had to deal with it. Therefor, I would impose this hardship on everyone" which is a relatively toxic way to look at the world.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by forgotmypw17 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:54AM (#25303690)
All the libraries have been closed for almost a year.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by bigwavedave on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:13AM (#25303954)
Must be relative from area to area- my fiancee and her sister do most of their college classwork at the library because campus is closed.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by forgotmypw17 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:50AM (#25304540)
Every public library I've seen up and down the East Coast, dozens of towns and cities, is closed. Some allow book checkouts at the door.

Are you referring to campus library or public? What state?

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by bigwavedave on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:16AM (#25312264)
Ahhhhh my mistake, she's informed me it's the campus library. The lecture halls and general campus is shut down, the library remains open for limited hours.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by foxrider on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:30AM (#25303334)
Yes, and the government would not provide you an email address, meaning you are given a choice of either using a "free" email service that would sell your data or paying a premium to a private hoster. I am not even considering self hosting because it's not something an average person could do.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by willis936 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:00AM (#25303769)
Is it wrong to consider a federal-taxpayer-funded open source E2E encrypted email hosting service for all US citizens? You’d need to trust the government is not putting in backdoors. Audits wouldn’t help since they’ve been spying on citizens with legislature since 2000. The alternative is... FAANGs spying on me. Pick your poison. One at least has the pretense of working for my benefit.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by upofadown on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:22PM (#25310682)
The E2E stuff would be at your end. Before anything fancier it would probably be good if the gov became technologically advanced enough to be able to send email to your public key and publish their own keys.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by aboringusername on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:27AM (#25303294)
Emails could certainly do with some maturing, both in protocol for security/privacy (yeah, I know...) and in terms of accessibility.

I am not sure society is completely ready for a fully digital world just yet; emails, phone numbers, authentication, username, passwords, 2FA codes, biometrics...

Gmail should absolutely be taken away from Google's influence and treated as a public utility (free for everyone for life).

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by metiscus on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:13AM (#25303956)
I support the concept of USPS offering email services for official purposes. I don't really support nationalizing Gmail.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by rasengan on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:40AM (#25303460)
That works for a lot of things.

For example, a pen is not a public utility yet it is required for more and more government services.

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by sroussey on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:42AM (#25303502)
A pen is usually provided, for example at the DMV.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by rasengan on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:00AM (#25303761)
As is internet, for example at the library...
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by raverbashing on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:42AM (#25303505)
Banks are not a public utility yet it is "required" to pay non-trivial amounts to the government.

Are all government offices public-transport accessible? (in a practical way - not in "two busses a day per route" kind of way)

Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by vel0city on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:03AM (#25303812)
Previously the requirement was to have a physical mailing address. I'd say paying rent or owning a home is a much higher bar for a lot of people than operating an email address.
Re:FCC to require email addresses on applications for amateu... by metiscus on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:12AM (#25303933)
If you are homeless there are ways to get postal service from your local post office. Postmasters can grant free PO boxes at their discretion (1). You are also able to take advantage of general delivery (2). General delivery is available even for those who are not homeless but merely without a permanent address.

1. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Is-there-mail-service-for-the...

2. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-General-Delivery