News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:29PM (#25292548)
Corporations and their managers care only about making money and maintaining good vibes to produce a positive business environment. Only unions engaging in strikes and outside pressure can force them to change materially. All these internal committees and such are just PR.

By the way, that part about unions and strikes also applies to the joined at the hip government as well.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dv_dt on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:56PM (#25292920)
I think worker cooperatives could also be a pressure for material change industry wide, and specifically in the tech industry I suspect that's more attainable than for workers of many other industries.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:58PM (#25292934)
I agree. I think one day I will be interested in organizing a tech cooperative. I'm not quite ready to make the jump though.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dv_dt on Friday December 04, 2020 @02:33PM (#25306630)
I'm in a similar place. I think the key is just getting some initial cash flow started to sustain an organic growth path.
[dead]
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:39PM (#25292685)
That's a crazy idea. There are sometimes unions that have racist members, and sometimes unions that are no good, but anyone paying attention to history has seen that unions are what fight for progressive change - material change that improves the lives of workers, who have always been multi-racial. Often they tackle racist structural problems. For example, in the Sanitation Workers' strike.

https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/memphis-sani...

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by ardy42 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:37PM (#25292660)
> Unions have historically been some of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in the USA.

The USA has been pretty racist in discriminatory, and I think it's disingenuous to single out unions for that history. I mean, who instituted Jim Crow and profited from slavery? White voters, government officials, and private enterprise. Unions were definitely not leading that.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by nickff on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:57PM (#25292931)
Private enterprise was usually castigated for not being racist enough. Economics was the 'dismal science' because it didn't support racism, segregation, and slavery.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by ardy42 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:31PM (#25293441)
> Private enterprise was usually castigated for not being racist enough. Economics was the 'dismal science' because it didn't support racism, segregation, and slavery.

I had slavery in mind with the private enterprise comment.

But it's not like businesses are actually run by perfectly rational automatons according to textbook economics. They're run by owners and managers who can be just as racist as the surrounding community, and who can very well prioritize prejudice over a little more profit.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:13PM (#25294077)
Don't forget that creating arbitrary hierarchies among workers is good for business by creating divisions among the working class, which keeps them from banding together effectively against the ownership class.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dnautics on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:08PM (#25293091)
That history is not entirely correct. Typically private enterprise has been against segregation: Think about it, it is pretty expensive to have to maintain two sets of facilities for society. The montgomery bus company was AGAINST segregation when the laws forcing bus segregation were passed. Barry Goldwater donated a ton of money in the early days first NAACP chapter in Arizona in part because segregating his department store would be expensive for operations.

As for Unions, think about it, their major threat is cheap labor from abroad, so the way that they have historically been discriminatory has been in lobbying for anti-immigration and immigration quota (don't know if they still do that as much).

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by opo on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:12PM (#25310613)
>...Typically private enterprise has been against segregation

Unclear why you were downvoted. Another example of this was Plessy v. Ferguson where the railroad worked with a civil rights group to bring the case:

>...On June 7, 1892, Plessy bought a first-class ticket at the Press Street Depot and boarded a "Whites Only" car of the East Louisiana Railroad in New Orleans, Louisiana, bound for Covington, Louisiana.[11] The railroad company, which had opposed the law on the grounds that it would require the purchase of more railcars, had been previously informed of Plessy's racial lineage, and the intent to challenge the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by alistoriv on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:47PM (#25292803)
That is irrelevant. Pointing out that unions have effected negative changes or engaged in discrimination internally in the past is not an argument against the idea that they're necessary to force positive change.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by bwestergard on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:08PM (#25293093)
"Unions have historically been some of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in the USA."

You're telling much less than half the story, and taking the latter half of the twentieth century in isolation without considering what came before.

U.S. unions with communist and socialist leadership were universally anti-racist in word and very often in deed. Employers often interfered with employee choice of leadership to the benefit of conservative, racist, union leaders as opposed to leftists with anti-racist commitments.

In one of the most flagrant violations of the First Amendment in U.S. history, the Taft-Hartley Act[1] criminalized membership in all manner of left-wing political organization. With the cooperation of union leaders ready to sell out their membership, many of the strongest voices for integration were purged.

Employers and union officials alike had relationships ranging from extortion to open cooperation with organized crime. The relationship between the Hoffa Sr's Teamsters and the mafia was complex, and notorious in part because it was so exceptional.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act#Anti-...

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:37PM (#25293543)
I'm just so happy that HN has lost its hard edged anarcho-captialist bent. T_T
[dead]
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by gnusty_gnurc on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:07PM (#25293065)
> The US has historically been one of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in North America.

That seems like a very US-lib centric POV where the US is a cartoonish evil-dooer.

In my experience Mexico is pretty much just as bad, even more so in different ways too - classism, racism, anti-indigenous sentiment, Malinchismo, rampant feminicide, etc.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:49PM (#25293723)
You have a point, but the key difference is the US is able to export its product worldwide using the military and corporations. I don't think Mexico has the same level of power.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by gnusty_gnurc on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:10PM (#25294033)
That’s circumstantial though.

My point is that these countries aren’t cosmic forces. We’re all humans that instantiate the same fundamental prejudices, instincts, biases, etc. wherever you find us.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by roflc0ptic on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:22PM (#25294215)
I totally agree with that point. The cartoonish depiction was intentional, in response to the cartoonish depiction of unions. The statement is defensible in the sense that I left it wiggly: “one of the most racist orgs” is kinda vague. I’m past my “US out of North America!” Phase, and all generally irritated with one dimensional interpretations of the world, though I could still play a radical leftist on TV
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:34PM (#25294393)
I would partly agree. We're all in a single global system of social organization and it's hard to see outside that (capitalist realism). Often these divisions are sown intentionally by the upper classes. I don't want to say humans aren't shitty, but I don't think they fundamentally have to be. I think they respond to their material conditions and an appropriate kind of social organization and material support can reduce the bad stuff a lot.
[dead]
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by chungus_khan on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:00PM (#25292959)
And cars are frequently used to smuggle illegal goods.

All sorts of legitimate and useful things get used illegitimately.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by ur-whale on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:19PM (#25293261)
Not systematically. Whereas the unions ...
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by chungus_khan on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:48PM (#25293703)
Do you have a similar problem with cash-only businesses?
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by ur-whale on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#25293994)
Not sure I follow how these two relate.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by chungus_khan on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:36PM (#25294428)
Cash-only and cash-intensive businesses are an incredibly easy and common vehicle for money laundering. The less customer information involved, the more effective. Such businesses are incredibly widespread and vital to organized crime, and their ease of operation in this manner is baked into their DNA.

Despite this, they too serve a useful function.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by tehjoker on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:52PM (#25292867)
Sure some of them have, but their foundational democratic and working class structure makes it possible for them to have a progressive effect on society. By contrast, the corporations that they are in conflict with supported the Nazis and planned a coup against FDR because their foundational interests in a regimented, nationalist, power hungry, and elitist society were aligned.

https://newspunch.com/american-companies-nazi-germany/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

EDIT: to respond to comments below:

1. Union busting since the New Deal era resulted in one of the most oppressed working classes in the world. Hence, low union enrollment.

2. FDR saved capitalism. I'm not his biggest fan. I'm a socialist.

3. Serious money was offered during the business plot. It didn't come to fruition, but the danger was real. Corporations are the real power in America.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by busterarm on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:01PM (#25292974)
And yet the most unionized industry in the US (at like 75% of overall union membership) is white-collar federal employment.

There's nothing working class about that.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by fabianhjr on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:19PM (#25293272)
Working class are people that have to sell their labour to get income; capitalist class are those that live off capital income. (Dividends, rent, etc)

If someone is employed in a government organization, like the CDC or a secretary of the white house, and they don't have capital income then they are working class.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by baryphonic on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:16PM (#25293223)
> This is so unhelpful and dumb. The US has historically been one of the most racist and discriminatory organizations in North America. Does that mean we shouldn’t engage the US? Does that mean the US can’t be less racist? Does that mean the US isn’t a tool we can try to use to make the world a better place?

I'm not sure this makes much sense. "Racism" (I'm guessing you mean things like slavery or de jure discrimination) were practiced concurrently in the US and elsewhere in North America, not to mention many other countries. The US was one of the first countries to have major movements to end slavery (Britain was the first global power to do so, and they preceded the US). I think it would be most accurate to say that the US has historically been both among the most racist and least racist countries, just depending on how you measure.

> Unions provide countervailing power to corporate power. Racist people are racist. Sometimes these can overlap.

Unions, on the other hand... Unions are a monopoly on labor. Monopolies reduce the amount of a good they supply and drive up prices. This means unions depend on certain people leaving the labor market that a union has captured. When a bunch of unions formed in the late 19th century and early 20th centuries, which people did the unions choose to exclude? More or less across the board, they excluded women, immigrants and black people. This was extra convenient, as members of those groups would typically work voluntarily for less pay, so the unions had double incentives to get rid of them. Many early Progressives were quite proud of this and other policies like a minimum wage forcing "inferior" groups to have to work harder to catch up to the white man.

The question we should be asking is why unions, minimum wage, hours restrictions, etc. were useful in eliminating "undesirables" from the labor force 100 years ago but help these same groups today.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by WitCanStain on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:59PM (#25296543)
Do you have sources where I can read about this?
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by baryphonic on Sunday December 06, 2020 @11:22PM (#25329300)
Yes.

For the former, I'd recommend chapter three of Thomas Sowell's Black Rednecks & White Liberals, about the history of slavery.[1]

For the latter, I'd recommend Illiberal Reformers, about the Progressive Era and its devotees.[2] Later Progressives were responsible for the school-to-prison pipeline and militarized police.[3] The Progressive Era has a wide array of interesting literature, including the writings of many of its early exponents (since they tended to be writers or academics).

[1]https://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Liberals-Thomas-Sowell...

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Illiberal-Reformers-Eugenics-Economic...

[3]https://reason.com/2017/01/21/no-way-out/

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by cool_dude85 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:39PM (#25292694)
Compare unions to corporations and I think unions come out ahead on that front. Any large American unions who directly worked with Nazi Germany like IBM did, for instance?