Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. Last thing we need here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

That was def not my intent Dang. Just sharing what I was feeling and some of what I am thinking about. Sorry.

I understand. The underlying issue is that conversation feels intimate here but is actually broadcasting to thousands if not millions of people. Spontaneous comments that are harmless and add life to conversation between two or three friends have entirely different effects at this scale. It's something we all have to deal with here.

Yep gotcha, I'll be extra careful going forward and aim to only provide things that are a bit more useful / actionable.

This source[0] shows the rate of mask wearing in public in the US far exceeds the average of Europe. I'm not sure it's "how American" insomuch as it's "how unfortunate this virus was allowed to spread so long before the world was told about it".

[0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/articles-reports/2020/07/...

I am currently living in Portugal, and was in Spain for the last 12 months. Mask use in Portugal is 100% on a day to day basis unless doing sport, Spain was the same where I was.

During the summer we did an outdoor road trip through 5 countries. There were no mandates for wearing it outside, but I didn't see a single person not wearing one inside in Italy, Austria, Slovenia, France...

The initial U.S. response to the virus was to do nothing. It will go away soon. We can blame it on China for not communicating it sooner, but what would we have done? Things would be better if we had done nothing, sooner?

Doing nothing? There was a rapid mobilization of emergency military hospitals (that were not used at all), ventilator development, vaccine development, therapeutic development, lockdowns, travel restrictions, and so on. And, here we are with multiple vaccines being deployed in record time.

Also, China could have locked down travel from China that might have helped.

> China could have locked down travel from China that might have helped.

See [1] and [2] for fact checks on this point.

[1] https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/trumps-flawed-china-travel...

[2] https://danielabell.com/?s=Ferguson&submit=Search

>how unfortunate this virus was allowed to spread so long before the world was told about it.

Blame China. I'm frankly shocked at how few international repercussions they've gotten. Any sane rational nation would be issuing economic sanctions left and right for their inept, pathetic handling of the pandemic.

If by "inept, pathetic handling of the pandemic" you mean the cover-up or data fudging accusations, I highly recommend the four part series in Quillette that examines the merit of these charges:

https://quillette.com/category/covid-19/china-syndrome-serie...

Here's the Twitter thread where the author introduced the series and gave some helpful backgrounds:

https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1298053847844368386

As he says:

"Again, I know that many of you are skeptical, but this essay has required a ridiculous amount of work and I'm really confident about the conclusions I reach, so I hope you will read it with an open-mind. I will post the other parts in this thread as they are published."

The author also has very helpful comments on the recent CNN leak

https://mobile.twitter.com/phl43/status/1333563577324761091

I remember when Trump issued travel restrictions on China, only to be scolded for being xenophobic.

I seriously doubt that there is meaningful overlap between anti-maskers, entrepreneurs, and artists.

The issue is that misinformation and conspiracy theories are thriving on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter, and they're received the illusion of legitimacy from one of our minority political party that controls 2 out of 3 branches of government.

Americans were able to make huge, selfless sacrifices during WWII. The only reason they can't do it now is that several very large companies profit from outrage, conspiracy, and polarization, and they have optimized our media to generate as much of those as possible.

"Americans were able to make huge, selfless sacrifices during WWII. The only reason they can't do it now is that several very large companies profit from outrage, conspiracy, and polarization, and they have optimized our media to generate as much of those as possible."

Very true, wish more people realized this.

Honest question: How unique is the U.S. vs. other countries, in terms of the fraction of population unwilling to take effective measures to avoid spreading to others?

I've seen occasional headlines about super-spreading events in Europe, but I have no idea how much their attendants are representative of their fellow countrymen.

This is Berlin: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/world-nation/st...

Yeah, I think that event in Berlin was one of the examples I had in mind as far as news-grabbing super-spreading.

Still, I can't really tell how much that crowd's attitude is indicative of the rest of Germany or even of other Berliners.

I'd say not at all, but then I live in the north where we have very few cases and at least in my city there is no mask compliance problem at all. I tend to hear worse stories from further south.

Rates of entrepreneurship are higher in Scandinavian countries.

"Rates of entrepreneurship are higher in Scandinavian countries."

Source ? Genuinely interested.

As an American who has traveled, and has friends, in Scandinavia, I would be surprised to learn this ...

I agree, there might even be a correlation between "incorrect confidence" and creativity. It's important to note though that other countries have been dealing with the fallout of their bad mistakes for centuries, while the US is still relatively young.

I think media (especially social media) is to blame for a lot of what is going on. By lending a voice to irrationality, they sow confusion and resistance.

This happens in other countries too. Most european countries are also dealing with people rejecting masks, lockdowns, etc.

Not to the same extent.

It's not about freedom though, it's just about discipline. By making some short term sacrifices earlier in the year, life in the US could have been back to normal by now.

There's an element of personal risk assessment that is allowed in American culture that you're not acknowledging.

Some people jump out of planes, others prefer to stay grounded. Some start companies and risk their life savings, others prefer the safety of salaried position.

Even when in agreement on the correctness of the data findings, our risk assessments and individual actions will very wildly.

If it were just about people willing to risk dying, I would have no complaint. But since this is a contagious disease, it's actually about people willing to risk killing. That's what I find morally objectionable, and indicative of deep rot in our society.

What you see as “risking killing” we see as “living a free life”. Same problem as with CO2 and global warming, we will only ever respond to negotiation and persuasion, you will never be able to walk over us like we are doormats. It doesn’t matter if there is a way to rationalize how leaving us free might harm others, we generally do not trust your judgement and we will never entrust you with the power to enslave us.

Ban condomless sex, ban all alcohol, ban individual ownership of cars, ban individual ownership of guns.

If you participate in any of these activities you are intentionally being reckless with the lives of others.

None of those remotely compare. Covid just became the number one cause of death in the US, in terms of deaths per day. Unlike heart disease and cancer, this was entirely preventable. Compared to banning cars, the safety measures are minor inconveniences, and only need to last until vaccines are widely available, which will happen in a few months.

> Some start companies and risk their life savings, others prefer the safety of salaried position.

Yet Scandinavian countries have higher rates of entrepreneurship than the US does.

Nothing you have described here is unique to the US.

> It's not about freedom though, it's just about discipline.

They see being told to be disciplined as an infringement on their freedom, so it is about freedom to them.

Forced to do things, HUGE difference. They made it a political issue by enforcing it with government, I didn’t want this fight at all. In the absence of coercion, I would have no problem with measures that have even a slight chance of helping.

Ah, so they are toddlers then

Many countries made serious short term sacrifices earlier in the year but are not back to normal now - including places like Korea, who've been consistently (and correctly!) praised as models of good pandemic response.

Sure, but on the other hand many countries are. And Korea is still light years ahead of the US on controlling the virus.

It’s nice we can trust the government to give us our freedoms back when it’s over.

You're implying that all current quarantine measures and lockdowns worldwide are going to be permanent, even after they're no longer necessary?

I don't think so, but I guess we'll see.

I’m hoping for the best but here are things I worry about:

Immunity passport for travel (papers please)

Lockdowns as a go-to tool for any public health problem in the future. Bad flu season? New swine flu?

Permanent masks for the non vaccinated?

If you recall the original lockdowns were two weeks to flatten the curve. That has certainly grown.

But like I said. I worry a lot and I hope I’m wrong.

I can see some of those being in effect in the short term (not lockdowns for any and every public health problem - that would be suicidal) but assuming the COVID vaccine works out, I see no reason for any of them to be in effect in the long term.

But other people are dying. People don't get to choose their own level of risk: they're putting others are risk.

> the price of chains and slavery

Wow! Did he really liken his situation and lot in life as a free white man in colonial America, to actual slavery?

This is the first I’ve read of his entire speech.

Meanwhile, the actual black slaves were still physically chained, and denied their own freedoms.

Geez! The irony.

Yes, those are platitudes. Thank God people had more sense when polio and whooping cough were around.

Thanks for trying to spread some sense on this thread. It is filled with misinformation....

What's amazing is that Trump could have been re-elected in a landslide if he had just stayed in character and gone all-in on a MAGA mask grift, selling them on AM radio and late night TV infomercials. You wouldn't find one single person in N. Dakota who wasn't wearing one.

I don't know about "re-elected in a landslide" but not making refusal to wear a mask a symbol of Republican solidarity and identity would probably have killed fewer of his potential voters and not turned every one of his events into a superspreader event.