> maybe if you don’t like it you can create your own

But that's the point. You can't.

Imagine Wal-Mart sold fridges and forced you to buy every item you put into that fridge at Wal-Mart.

And maybe that Xbox you bought at Wal-Mart required you to buy (and pay for) your Xbox live pass through Wal-Mart.

Yep. I also can’t create a Wal-Mart, or an AirBnB, or Netflix, or Disney. So what?

Why do I have to pay Microsoft to play via Xbox Live? Why can’t I set up my own online service to play games on their hardware?

Paying for Xbox Live in order to access games with matchmaking/sometimes dedicated servers on Microsoft resources and services (because that's what you're paying for)? Sure! But somebody who wants to play a game with non-platform crossplay, like Rocket League or something like Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid, absolutely should not have to pay for Xbox Live, and I don't see why that would be controversial.

Alright. When you see them, please forward me all the articles clamoring for making Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, or others to do so. Btw why exactly do I need to get approval from Steam to sell games on their store? Why can’t I sell World of Warcraft gold on eBay, and why does Epic have a monopoly on the marketplace for Fortnite?

Better yet, why do I need Wal-Mart’s approval to sell anything?

"Oh but nobody's talking about this other shitty thing so everything must be permitted" is...certainly a way to approach the world, but not one to which I subscribe. Nor should you.

And Steam doesn't, and in fact cannot, prevent you from installing GOG Galaxy or downloading games from itch.io. (And devices like the Steam Link will happily play games sourced from GOG Galaxy or itch.io through them!)

This is tiresome. I will not reply to you further.

Again, why do I have to follow their rules for their App Store?

> Why do I have to pay Microsoft to play via Xbox Live?

Exactly! If you bought your Xbox through Apple, you'd be paying Apple a chunk for the privilege of using a Microsoft service. See the issue?

...no because this doesn’t make any sense. If you bought your Xbox through Apple for some reason it would be similar to buying it from Best Buy... where Microsoft still has a monopoly on Xbox Live services.

But that is what is happening right now!

If you purchase a Netflix subscription from the Netflix app that you got from the Apple store (replace Netflix with Xbox here to see the comparability), Apple takes 30% every single month. Never mind the fact that you might be using the Netflix account on your non-Apple TV or laptop.

Apple also ensures that you can't buy it through Netflix directly, you have to buy it through them. You would have to purchase the subscription outside of the Netflix app.

Yes, because Apple provides the platform and you discovered Netflix through the App Store. If it’s a problem you can just not have your app on the store or, as Netflix is doing, not have people sign up via the App Store.

Why shouldn’t Apple get what amounts to a referral fee here?

> Why shouldn’t Apple get what amounts to a referral fee here?

Why should they? I feel like you are not getting the point that everyone is trying to make to you. Maybe if I throw a few more examples at you. Otherwise I give up...

If I buy a smart TV at Wall-Mart, Wall-Mart gets a 'referral' fee for the TV but not for the Netflix subscription I use on that TV.

If I buy an Xbox at Wall-Mart, Wall-Mart gets a 'referral' fee for the Xbox but not for the Xbox live subscription I run on that console.

If I buy a physical copy of Adobe Photoshop at Wall-Mart, Wall-Mart gets a 'referral' fee for the purchase but does not get a cut when I sign up to Adobe's CS subscription each year (because at that point there is no more 'referral' going on!).

If I buy a fridge at Wall-Mart I am allowed to purchase my groceries I put in it from stores other than Wall-Mart. Imagine if Wall-Mart set up a system to block any non-Wall-Mart purchased groceries from going into the fridge? Then you'd be forced to pay a 'referral' fee to Wall-Mart every time you want to use your device. No one could set up a competing store to sell you groceries for your Wall-Mart fridge.

How can you "create an App Store" for iOS devices?

I don't even think Apple's doing anything I don't like, and I gotta throw a flag on this pseudoargument.

Have you heard of Android?

Ah. So it's not "you can create an alternative app store for the devices that customers and not Apple owns", but you can create an entire new hardware stack on which to run applications, and then put an app store on that.

Compelling.

Well, it is quite compelling. You want to single out Apple but ignore how this has been going on since, well, almost the dawn of time.

There are plenty of phone manufacturers with different operating systems. If you don’t like using Apple’s App Store you are perfectly free to use other hardware and software combinations as you see fit to purchase that are available on the market.

There are plenty of hardware manufacturers that are free to spend as much money as they want to build phones, spend money to build operating systems, and then do whatever they want with those systems. So yes, create your own hardware stack on which to put applications and then put an App Store on that. Apple had the foresight to do so and create market value, nothing is stopping Samsung, HTC, Huawei, Google, or others from doing so. Nothing.

There are plenty of phone manufacturers with different operating systems on which you cannot distribute software outside of their approved method? Gosh, I didn't know that, but y'know, I'm OK with hitting them with the hammer, too.

And the fun part is this: I made my first post in this thread having in the past said that I really didn't mind the status quo but you've successfully convinced me that that hammer should be swung at them as hard as it possibly can be.

Opposite for me. The more people complain about Apple on hacker news or elsewhere because they aren’t making enough money and have to play by the App Store rules the more I know it’s the right thing and the more likely I am to buy an iPhone or new Mac. Especially because the arguments are so inconsistent and just come from generic mindshare. People don’t think. Apple Big! Apple bad! Conveniently ignoring that their business practices bring benefits to customers, they have extremely high brand loyalty and approvals, and are making money because people buy iPhones precisely because of the opposite reasons that you espouse here.

I don’t get it. If you hate the iPhone and apple App Store philosophy why can’t you just buy a different phone? Put your money where your mouth is. Apple and the App Store suck? Prove it with your purchases. Don’t sit here and complain about a “monopoly” that makes developers a shit load of money.

Ok how about this. If developers want a different store, they can all pay a fee to Apple to continue to develop new hardware and provide updates for iOS. Sounds fair to me.

You don't even need to compare Apple to other OEMs. Compare Apple to itself. On macOS, despite increasingly more stringent security policies, you are free to install apps and software outside of the App Store. Why should iOS be different? Why the inconsistency across Apple's own platforms? Is iOS somehow less secure than desktop and must only go through the App Store?

Because one is a phone and the other is a computer? Or maybe because people want the two devices to be treated differently? Why would they be the same? I can’t install whatever I want on my Sony TV or my car. Why does an iPhone specifically have to do this?

Smartphones are much more advanced computing devices than televisions or cars, to the point that they are a government-subsidized good for low-income citizens that was only recently ended by Ajit Pai (the Lifeline program). Perhaps modern basic necessities shouldn't be locked?

Also, as others in this thread have pointed out, there's nothing saying that game consoles should be special and should be subject to digital locks. By the same token, perhaps there should be nothing preventing smart TVs and cars from being locked as well.

It’s easier to jailbreak than complain.

Non sequitur. That doesn’t explain any of the inconsistencies.

Don't forget that if you do such a thing you forfeit the ability to use the google play services which make up about 50% of what people consider an android phone to be.

Google does not allow you to have an alternative store preinstalled.