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Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by echelon on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @07:58PM (#25283927)
> Tokyo is an amazing city, though it can be very lonely for an expat.

Could you expand upon this? I've been thinking of moving there for a year or two to focus on my language skills and work on my startup.

I spent a lot of time in Obihiro, Hokkaido in my late teens and had a blast hanging out at the university. Everyone was super friendly.

When I traveled to even more remote towns like Hobetsu / Mukawa, Makubetsu, Ashoro, and Honbetsu, the children would run up to meet me and want to take photos. (They don't see foreigners often.)

I never spent much time in Tokyo, but I did spend a lot of time in Shanghai, Changsha, and other big Chinese cities and almost want to consider that a proxy.

Why is Tokyo lonely? Is it this city in particular? Is it a certain age range?

Post-college and into adulthood does it become lonelier?

Also, what's the startup scene like in Tokyo? I'm considering something a few steps beyond VTuber streaming and think Japan would be a great environment to pull talent from.

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by distantaidenn on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:12PM (#25285293)
Been living in Tokyo for near a decade, and I can add that despite it being a bustling metropolis, it does have this silent loneliness just in the background. It's hard to describe, unless you spend any significant time here, and the locals of Tokyo will tell you the same -- it's a cold city. With that being said, I love the place. However, if not for my cabal of really close friends, I don't think I would stay here -- and these are friends from my university days back in America.

I can contrast it with another city I have lived in (on and off for 2-3 years), and that's Seoul. In my first year in Seoul, I probably met more close friends than in a decade of living in Tokyo. I'm an introvert through and through, so unless people open up to me first, there is going to be silence. Tokyo has a way of making you comfortable with the mundane.

Seoul is just this bustling amazing city with an energy of "anything is possible" in the air. Tokyo seems as though it has already had its heyday and is on a slow, silent, but peaceful decline. I love my little neighborhood, and have made a life for myself in Tokyo, but I can't honestly recommend it as a place to move to, unless you have some deep interest in Japan or family connections.

If you are interested in the startup scene, it's here but nothing on the scale that you would see in the US. I'd say Seoul is the place to be for startups now -- the Korean government is pretty much throwing money at people with ideas.

I'll always call Japan home, but I definitely see myself leaving Tokyo in the near future, if not for another city, then back to Korea.

To give some context, I'm a male 30 something PoC.

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by jesterson on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:51AM (#25286242)
Very lucid and reasonable view. As much as I do love some Japanese cities (Tokyo is not in the list - but to each it's own) and always will see Japan as my only home - I do share the sentiment.

A lot (if not majority) of foreigners fall for the image Japan has when it's observed from abroad. That's a very unfortunate illusion

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by OJFord on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:23AM (#25300501)
> To give some context, I'm a male 30 something PoC.

Proof of Concept?

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by distantaidenn on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:41PM (#25310802)
Person of color. Used as a distinction due the perceived user base here being mostly white males. It’s a common term.

And now that you know the meaning you’ll be seeing it every where... Baader Meinhof phenomenon and all that.

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by OJFord on Saturday December 05, 2020 @07:33PM (#25319809)
Oh, thanks.

Maybe. (I certainly do experience that in general!) In the UK though I very rarely hear people describe themselves or others as 'a person/people of colour' though, even in full I mean; it's American to my ear.

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by agar on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:24PM (#25284124)
I'll admit to only having been to Tokyo about a half dozen times, for up to two weeks at a time. It remains one of my favorite cities, but at the end of two weeks I was ready to go home. I don't usually feel that way when traveling.

I found it lonely for the same reason I loved the city: it was so familiar, and yet so different at the same time. I felt like gears that were slightly out of mesh, not enough to snap, but enough to wear away the edges and cause subtle damage over time.

Making friends as an adult is always hard, but being a transplant into such a new culture is even harder. Everyone was friendly, but finding true connection is difficult: language barriers, cultural differences, biases (on both sides), and perhaps the transitory nature of my stay meant there was always a constant difference.

I always felt like an outsider, even when welcomed warmly. Maybe this was me, but I always knew I was being accommodated: "he's a gaijin, he doesn't know better." This was absolutely kind, but I also knew that I didn't know better, and didn't know what I didn't know, and that created a subtle tentativeness and friction in social interactions.

The classic scenes of Tokyo streets with tall buildings filled with small shops and laced with vertical signage is an apt metaphor for living in Tokyo. There is so much hidden behind the facades that it takes a lifetime to know what's really there, unless you have a guide with infinite patience.

Maybe other cities, or towns, would be different. Maybe it would be much easier if I was fluent, or planned to stay for years. Maybe someone without tendencies towards introversion, or who went with a partner to lean on, would have a very different experience.

But like I said, many small factors just wore on me, and I was happy to return to the warm embrace of home.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the startup scene to do more than speculate. I was there representing an enterprise software company, which has very different dynamics - especially in Japan.

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by heelix on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:36PM (#25284212)
Years back, I use to cover Europe and had taken Latin at University. Was use to stumbling through a language as there were enough common roots that I could parse enough words to sort of make sense of things. Got a work project in Tokyo and jumped at the chance. I picked up a cheap translation book and attempted to order some sort of rice bowl with meat and a beer evening after evening on my first few trips out there. Every time, I got ... something. Never what I was actually thinking it was. It was very odd to not understand any written or spoken word. Folks were very kind but it was so very odd to not understand more than a few common phrases.

This was also a point in time where our shop started insisting on receipts for travel expenses. I always got something that had a number on it, but lord knows what it actually said. Was rather a snarky moment when I handed over the stack of receipts all in Japanese.

I really miss the travel...

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by agar on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @10:48PM (#25285137)
The receipt story made me laugh. Trying to decipher receipts for expense reports was not the most fun part of business travel to Tokyo!

(Though Japan on an expense report is really the best way to go, unless you're fabulously wealthy. I can't say I'm complaining!)

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by psychomugs on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:24PM (#25284121)
I only lived in Tokyo for a few months, but I felt like there was a lingering loneliness paradoxically exacerbated by the high population density. Growing up around Southern hospitality set a high bar, but even compared to less friendly parts of the States, it was hard to strike up random conversations that were deeper than anything superficial. It's a hard culture to break into if you're obviously a foreigner because of the high language barrier, and you start seeing the same faces in the expat circles after a while. Still a great city where I made a lot of deep connections, and I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to park myself there for a few years.
Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by x3iv130f on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @10:23PM (#25284966)
Tokyo has a reputation for being cold even to Japanese people from other prefectures. Osaka was more fun and friendly.
Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by psychomugs on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:45AM (#25285821)
Definitely, even my Tokyo-native friends dislike the mind-your-own-business and fake-nice mentalities.
Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by bfung on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @09:00PM (#25284381)
Chinese culture and Japanese culture are very different related to this article and in the way we/they treat outsiders - the big Chinese cities are not good proxies.

In the last 20 years, a lot of Chinese tradition and respect has been thrown out and attitudes towards business and family flipped on its head with the rise of Chinese capitalism - a lot of hustle and winner takes all at the expense of everyone else attitude.

The elite and/or hustling Chinese embrace western things and incorporate them in their life -- even flexing their English knowledge is a way to signal social/economic class in China. I'm not an expert in Japan, but I don't see a lot of English flexing in Japanese culture.

In terms of being an expat, plenty of expat + curiosity in Chinese cities to never really be lonely.

Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by porknubbins on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:12PM (#25284039)
I’ve lived in Tokyo a few times and didn’t feel it was especially lonely for a big city. Or rather it has the potential to be as cold and lonely as any other big city if you just work and go home and don’t meet people. In some ways its easier to meet other expats because you have outsider status in common, though as some of them inevitably move I suppose it could get lonelier.
Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by agar on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:28PM (#25284146)
This is very true. Connecting with other expats is easy and fun, and I spent plenty a night in the "gaijin ghetto." I'm not sure that that would scale for a multi-year stay though; like you say, it's a pretty transient crowd.
Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by tly_alex on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @10:53PM (#25285175)
Just curious, how do you like Changsha? Most people on hacker-news are from the tech industry, Changsha was more famous for its TV/media entertainment industry.
Re:A Japanese shop is 1,020 years old by zaguios on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:34PM (#25285418)
Not OP, but I've visited several cities in China including Changsha and it's definitely one of my top 3 cities. The food and club scene there stood out to me in particular.