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Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by nootropicat on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @10:35AM (#25266036)
Define 'kill'. ETC has been 51% attacked multiple times and it still exists. It's very possible some people are going to mine btc on their personal hardware even in 2100. The only caveat is the difficulty adjustment algorithm, as it's potentially possible for btc to become stuck at an extremely high difficulty.

For 'kill' as in 'stops being big and important' I think it's going to happen relatively soon, mostly agreeing with your article. Bitcoin already lost its past domination in users and total fees paid to ethereum, the only missing part is for eth to actually monetize that by fully switching from PoW to PoS. When eth stakers start making even billions annually while btc buyers lose billions annually to mining, btc losing its first place is only a matter of time. After that, PoW is going to be widely discredited and viewed as obsolete.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by flixic on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @10:51AM (#25266186)
Everything I know about cryptocurrencies makes me think you and parent are completely right, and PoW cannot work without inflation (or even with very low inflation, that does not justify the cost of running hardware in the absence of transactions). Just relying on transaction fees should lead to downward spiral of use, where fees are way too high to maintain use, or network security is too low to protect value.

I'd like to hear from Bitcoin proponents where we are wrong in our thinking. What assumptions are incorrect? Is there a flaw in economic reasoning? If not, what is being done with Bitcoin to address this existential risk for Bitcoin?

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by DennisP on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:02AM (#25266323)
There's actually research out of Princeton, that says blockchains destabilize if the rewards are dominated by fees.

https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CC...

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by 1996 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:54PM (#25267708)
No, it's very short sighted and wrong: their whole analysis from 2016 depend on a high variance of rewards, which completely ignores the reality of 2017 clogged mempool where miners chose the highest tx fee.

Selfish mining is possible, at least for a short period of a time, but sunk costs are eventually sunk costs and you compete for the next block.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by this_user on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:10PM (#25271778)
Why would mining be anything but selfish? The only reason miners are operating is because they expect a reward that is greater than their expenses.

That means block rewards plus TX fees need to be greater than the cost of running the network. Block rewards are effectively a tax on existing holders through inflation of supply, but that will go to zero in the long run. As the rewards decreases, TX fees will need to increase, which means the average TX will rise. This will increasingly make using BTC prohibitively expensive unless the block size is increased so as to allow more TX per block.

But if the scenario should arise where revenue no longer covers the costs of being a miner, the whole economic model breaks down. This could even get to the point where going rogue, and attempting to exploit the network with the hash power, could become more profitable for a miner.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by 1996 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @10:25PM (#25272913)
I think you do not understand "selfish mining": it's a technical term for a miner trying to take the lead over the existing blockchain, but only in some very specific cases outside normal mining. It's predicted by game theory - google for it, it's interesting!

The rest of your analysis is correct: as rewards decrease, TX fees may increase. You can also see that due to competition for the limited tps, as seen in 2017.

But this is also exactly why the scenario discussed in the paper is implausible: miners get to pick the transactions with the highest fees for inclusion in the next block. If your transaction is not urgent, you pay the minimum and wait. Eventually, it will be processed - if the expected delay (given the mempool) is not to your liking, you can update the fee with RBF.

But again, it means there will be little variance - just a smooth adjustment, meaning the required condition this whole paper is based on is dead wrong.

About the economic model breaking down, you make 2 mistakes: 1) you fail to account for difficulty adjustments made just for this situation, but even people who do often forgot 2) when revenue no longer covers costs (as say for a factory), the company doesn't immediately give up and fire everybody.

It's industrial organization 101, and due to the difference between short term and long term.

Of course, there is less friction and fewer rigidities with software, and mining equipment could be deployed differently if it was still CPUs or GPUs.

But the genius of ASICs having no alternative use means it can't happen (except maybe switching to another coin with the same algorithm)

Overall, regardless of the situation and what you throw at it, there's no situation I can see where the economic model break - except maybe if miners are tracked and executed on sight by the army? But even then, all it would do is move the mining to another country - or lead to bribes!

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by DennisP on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @08:59AM (#25276353)
Regarding point (2), it's not "giving up" for a miner to shut down the equipment temporarily. It can even be done automatically.

Mining is competitive. A miner who shuts down while revenue is less than electricity cost, and starts up again when fees rise, will outcompete a miner who just leaves everything running even while taking losses.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by aeternum on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:50AM (#25266896)
These researchers really need to re-evaluate their assumptions:

>Figure 2: Illustration of Mining Gaps. Miners will only mine when the instantaneous expected reward exceeds the instantaneous cost

This makes no sense, rational actors generally consider discounted future cash flows, not just instantaneous reward. Perhaps the quality of the paper is explained by the researchers following this strategy and only working on 15th and 30th of every month (when their salaries are remitted to their bank account representing an instantaneous reward).

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by nootropicat on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:16PM (#25267201)
Discounted cash flow applies to capital like asics, but energy used for mining is instantaneous cost. When the expected revenue from mining is lower than expected power expenses mining makes zero sense.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by aeternum on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @02:22PM (#25268767)
Not necessarily, the paper itself shows motivations other than direct revenue for discovering a block (IE ability to withhold a block and selfish mining strategies).

> We also assume that miners always have space to include all available transactions.

This is also a pretty bad assumption. In reality the bitcoin mempool is almost always non-zero as bitcoin has smaller and/or less frequent blocks than many other cryptocurrencies.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by tromp on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:28AM (#25266617)
PoW can work fine with the inflation rate going to zero, and without relying on transaction fees. All it needs is a constant (or an eventually constant) block reward. An effective zero inflation is already achieved when the new emission merely balances the amount of coins getting lost.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by hanniabu on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:49AM (#25266877)
Sorry but this is a ridiculously stupid reasoning. You're relying on coins being lost (unknown amount) to counteract rewards and closing there's no inflation due to that.

This also assumes that miners will be holding enough bitcoin that price increases alone will not only pay for their operations but also cover a reasonable interest in their holdings. It's not logical to think this will happen. And even of it does, you'll be left with only a handful of miners.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by konschubert on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:43PM (#25267566)
I think your second paragraph is wrong, since the parent suggests that a block reward will still be paid through newly minted coins.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by konschubert on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:37AM (#25266736)
So the amount of value getting lost must be equal or greater the electricity bill for mining.

I see your point but doesn’t sound like a great pitch.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by downandout on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @02:47PM (#25269039)
Bitcoin might fall into obsolescence, but it won’t be because it is mined. It simply isn’t as useful as ETH. I firmly believe that DeFi, which is based upon ETH’s smart contracts and distributed EVM concept, is the future of the finance and investing universe, even with its many issues today.

Flash loans/minting, for example, have turned the markets into the ultimate meritocracy. Anyone - rich or poor - can access up to hundreds of millions of dollars instantly to execute any profitable transaction, no human review or approval necessary. Liquidity pools, introduced by Uniswap, solved many of the problems and risks associated with holding thinly traded assets. Smart contracts have enabled any new project’s tokens to instantly have real value, because in most cases new tokens can only be released to the market by locking ETH into the contract in exchange for the new tokens.

These innovations, along with those that are coming, enable a shockingly large number of new opportunities in the finance world to a much larger audience than ever before. It might be a few years before security, market manipulation protections, etc. are mature enough for mass adoption. But the opportunities that DeFi enables will drive demand for ETH, in a way that today’s Bitcoin simply cannot.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by javert on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:38PM (#25271534)
> Anyone - rich or poor - can access up to hundreds of millions of dollars instantly to execute any profitable transaction, no human review or approval necessary

What does this mean? If I'm poor (or rich), why not borrow hundreds of millions of dollars to make some highly speculative trade? If it goes well, I win big; if it goes tits up, the lender loses big (not me).

I'm certain that's an uncharitable reading of your comment - please take it in the spirit of "this is what I'm asking you to explain to me in simpler terms," not as an argument.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by Flashtoo on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:06PM (#25271753)
Flash loans let anyone borrow a large amount of crypto with no collateral, provided the loan amount plus a fee is returned in the same transaction it is borrowed in. No collateral is required because there is no risk (assuming no exploits).

This means you can't take the highly speculative trade, you can only go for a sure thing. But if you do have a sure thing, you can borrow as much currency as the lender can provide.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by downandout on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @08:02PM (#25272118)
Yes, and gas fees for failed transactions ensure you can’t just take unlimited shots at it either. However, if you are monitoring the markets and your code, connections to the network, etc. are fast enough, you can make a fortune using flash loans. A few days ago I found a trade where someone made $17k on a single trade [1] with the only necessary capital being a ~$170 transaction fee. They took a $250k flash loan that they successfully arbitraged. Smaller amounts are made all day every day.

[1] https://etherscan.io/tx/0xfd35e99cbbefea68874391a14ddb09a289...

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by kgin on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:59PM (#25272106)
So the loan and the return is a single "transaction" (in db terms)?

What sort of situation could this be used in? I'm having a hard time truly imagining use without any risk of transaction rollback.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by downandout on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @08:04PM (#25272137)
They are primarily used for arbitrage transactions. Token swaps on decentralized exchanges are instant - there is no order book. So you can compose a single transaction that involves many exchanges, swaps involving different tokens, flash loans, etc. If the transaction ends with a profit after the loan is paid back, at the market prices that exist at the time the transaction is executed, the flash loan occurs, and profits are collected by the person that created the transaction. If it does not end with a profit, then the transaction is reverted as if it never existed.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by socialentity on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:23AM (#25274001)
How would that work, though? It sounds like guaranteed arbitrage? But does arbitrage work as a trading strategy? I thought markets quickly become too efficient for that?
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by downandout on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:15PM (#25278620)
It is guaranteed arbitrage. There is no risk to the lender, and the only risk to the person that initiated the transaction is that slippage will occur that makes the trade unprofitable, which would cause the transaction to revert, which would cause them to lose the transaction fee for having attempted the transaction.

The markets are not currently too efficient for that, and never will be. In fact Uniswap’s entire design depends heavily on arbitrageurs balancing out the markets between itself and other exchanges.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by SamBoogieNYC on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @03:31AM (#25274382)
Wow this sent me down a rabbit hole.

How are the transactions composed, with a smart contract/s, in combination with Dex API’s?

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by downandout on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:08PM (#25278532)
Flash loans are composed using a smart contract. So basically you create a smart contract that will call all the DEX/loan platform/other contract functions necessary to obtain the loan, carry out swaps and pay it back. You then deploy that contract.

Then you would have a separate program running on your client machine to scan for market opportunities, and when it spots one, have that program send a transaction to your deployed smart contract to initiate the loan and set into action whatever logic you programmed into the smart contract that will yield a profit.

Yes, it’s quite a rabbit hole indeed. It is hard to believe that something like this is even possible, let alone profitable, but it really can be. I have seen single flash loan transactions yield up to $46k in profits. That profit is irrevocably delivered back to you in a couple of seconds.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by SamBoogieNYC on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:33PM (#25294374)
Yea it’s really quite wild and an exciting application of the ‘programmable money’ concept. Did some more reading. Thanks for the rundown.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by capnorange on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:55AM (#25273644)
flash loans makes markets more efficient:

https://blog.instadapp.io/six-percent-instant-return/

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by beaner on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:55PM (#25271160)
The false premise you're using is that smart contracts provide more utility than sound economic policy does.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by downandout on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @06:26PM (#25271429)
I don’t think that “sound economic policy” would, for example, have major banks offering flash loans. There are many things that can only be achieved through decentralization. Policymakers and banks alike have a serious interest in remaining gatekeepers, and would never enable many of the DeFi functions.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by socialentity on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:20AM (#25273990)
On the other hand, if flash loans are not sound economic policy, doesn't that imply they won't prevail? Evolution will weed them out.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by DennisP on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @09:22PM (#25272580)
So what happens after Ethereum finishes migrating to proof of stake and has lower inflation than Bitcoin?
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by beaner on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @09:41PM (#25272699)
The problem is not what the inflation rate is at any given moment, but that it can be changed so easily, like the very switch to ETH 2 is an example of.

The inflation curve in Bitcoin is considered sacred. In Ethereum, it's developer whim and EIP approval.

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by nootropicat on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:16AM (#25273967)
It was known from the start that the PoW phase is just a temporary development phase, with no parameters set in stone. Eth2 has a deterministic inflation schedule that depends on total amount of stake.

  def calc_annual_reward(total_staked_eth):
     return math.exp(31556926 / 384 * 64 / 31622 / total_staked_eth ** 0.5) - 1
This is the return rate for validators - this should be multiplied by the average online percentage, eg. 0.9 if average participation is 90%. On top of that comes fee burning, which is inherently variable, but likely to lead to deflation at least initially. Extrapolating fees from the last 24 hours and assuming 10M eth is staked, the net result is a deflation of 1.3%.
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by brighton36 on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:19PM (#25271829)
How does sound economic policy differ from visual economic policy?
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by jerry1979 on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @02:26AM (#25274020)
Have you checked out rsk? It lives on top of bitcoin and apparently does smart contracts.

https://www.rsk.co

Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by literallycancer on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @06:14AM (#25275370)
Is anything built on top of rsk up and running at this time?
Re:Ethereum 2.0 launches by flixic on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:56PM (#25279145)
From what I can understand from their official dashboard, the answer is no: https://stats.rsk.co

RSK MainNet launched about 3 years ago. Currently, most blocks have no transactions, with 0 gas spent.