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Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by mschuster91 on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:09AM (#25252022)
I agree with the majority of your post, but this part here is flat out wrong:

> You know why open source hardware is expensive for lower quality? Because Apple pays the premium on the premium quality stuff. But I'm that process they also drive up the prices.

Hardware is hard. Some Atmel or whatever low brain microcontroller can be had on a board with hand-painted selfmade-etched circuits or shoddy breadboard stuff, at the frequencies these things operate signal integrity doesn't really matter.

But anything with a brain powerful enough to run Linux? Then you're delving into differential signalling at extremely high frequencies - which means you have to precisely account for trace widths, trace thickness and trace length matching simply to ensure that the signal from your CPU arrives at your RAM chip intact. You'll ned an awful lot of awfully precise voltage levels other than 3v3/5v, with equally precise requirements on timing in getting them up. You also won't be able to get away with a two layer board, you'll need three or more layers and a lot of vias - and now, you can't manufacture your own prototypes any more but need to order at a PCB shop which means you either pay through your nose for speedy turnaround and low volume or wait for weeks for pool orders.

And once you have the PCB you'll need to populate and solder it - where you will run into such nasty things as minimum order quantities and the need for a pick-and-place machine if you don't want to go nuts. And if that's not enough, have fun with NDAs and no support for hobbyists by big SoC vendors due to small volumes (I have extensively written about that topic here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25208056).

The best solution if you needs smarts is to look into either adopting a Raspberry Pi 4 Compute Module if you can get away with its performance, or look into COMexpress if you need serious, up to Intel Xeon scale levels performance - but be warned, designing for that ain't exactly easy either.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by amelius on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:19AM (#25252087)
You seem to be forgetting about the powerful EDA software that will help with the design and its verification.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by mschuster91 on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:26AM (#25252126)
Which isn't free (and easy to use!) either.

And I forgot about another thing too: the supply of people. While everyone and their dog can attend some six weeks coding bootcamp or teach themselves using free and open resources and can then start contributing to open source code, dealing with hardware requires a good education in fundamental physics, good amounts of money for components and tooling (a good soldering iron, air filters, fine-controlled hot air gun, a decent oven, the equipment and the chemicals for etching, a precise micro-drill, ...). Many people don't have that amount of upfront money and skills, and those that do often don't have the amount of free time to help advance open source because, as I wrote, it takes lots of time and money to deal with smart hardware.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by MaxBarraclough on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:30AM (#25252411)
> everyone and their dog can attend some six weeks coding bootcamp or teach themselves using free and open resources and can then start contributing to open source code

Perhaps this was intended to be hyperbolic, but no, you can't become a kernel developer, say, in six weeks. You can learn to dabble in web development in that time, but you'll barely have taken the first step toward being a serious software engineer.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by j4yav on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:23AM (#25252693)
They said that it was possible to contribute to open source, which is surely true. Not that they could be a kernel developer.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by MaxBarraclough on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:13AM (#25252992)
Granted, but six weeks is easily long enough to learn how to assemble a computer, or to do basic soldering. If we're going to compare hardware skills and software skills, let's do so in a reasonable way. If we're talking about building a new system from the ground up, I think the comparison to kernel development is about right.

Much skill is needed to make a serious contribution to an open hardware project, but the same is true for many types of software.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by amelius on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:22AM (#25252686)
I don't think you understand very well how hardware design works. Most hardware designers write code just like software developers. Most of them have never used a hot air gun, and most of them can't explain in much detail how a transistor works at the physical level (they learned this once in their education, but have since forgotten, simply because they don't need to know this in their daytime jobs). Yes, once you need to fab your design (and iterate on it) you need other disciplines, but the work here is more or less the same for any design.
Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by foldr on Monday November 30, 2020 @07:28AM (#25253064)
PCB design doesn't involve much coding. It's typically done in a semi-manual way using a CAD-like interface. Here's an example for a simple board:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b1UdOmxVrw

There is, as yet, no magical piece of software that automatically produces good layouts - not even for simple designs like this where signal integrity is of little concern.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by mschuster91 on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:33AM (#25252755)
> Most hardware designers write code just like software developers.

You're talking about people doing FPGA work which is a totally different skillset than making your own PCBs - and even more lacking in people contributing to open-source projects because it is (at least in my opinion) even harder to get a grasp on, and capable FPGA development boards cost a boatload of money.

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by AzN1337c0d3r on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:33PM (#25257192)
I'm pretty sure he meant people who design hardware using Hardware Description Languages which aren't only used to configure FPGAs... you can build ASICs using them too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_description_language

Re:Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon? by foldr on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:32AM (#25252159)
I completely agree with your overall point, but on a pedantic note, you don't need to etch your own PCBs these days.