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Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by skohan on Saturday November 28, 2020 @05:11PM (#25240985)
> religious belief in meritocracy is what made the US wealthy

Is it really though? For instance, in the post-war period of the 1950's which is often taken as the period where the American Dream was in full force, organized labor was much stronger in the US than it is today, and a huge chunk of the population was essentially inserted into the middle class through the GI bill, which was really a social welfare program when it comes down to it.

I think the degree to which individual grit gave rise to American prosperity is often over-stated, and the degree to which it was a result of collective action is often overlooked.

Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by rayiner on Saturday November 28, 2020 @09:02PM (#25242343)
The US was, per capita, the richest country in the world by 1820-30.
Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by IdiocyInAction on Sunday November 29, 2020 @06:11AM (#25244438)
The US is also the most geographically blessed nation on the planet.
Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by skohan on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:14AM (#25244169)
And? The 1950's were just one example. There are also a lot of factors besides "grit" which contributed to the success of the US. Practically unlimited natural resources would be an example.
Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by metabagel on Saturday November 28, 2020 @10:16PM (#25242668)
What if you subtracted the wealth created by slavery?
Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by rayiner on Saturday November 28, 2020 @11:12PM (#25242872)
You usually compare countries in terms of GDP or GDP per capita, which is a measure of production and not “wealth.” By 1820, the US was producing more per person than Western Europe: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/seminars/seminars/co...

That measure inherently excludes the “wealth” represented by ownership of enslaved people. It includes what those people produce, but the “per capita” measure also includes enslaved people in the denominator.

The production of enslaved people represented a small fraction of the economy—about 5% of GDP during the peak of the cotton boom: https://fee.org/articles/no-slavery-did-not-make-america-ric... see also https://jacobinmag.com/2019/08/how-slavery-shaped-american-c...

More importantly, you can’t increase a country’s overall level of production by enslaving people. Its basic economics—unfree labor misallocates labor resources to industries controlled by slave owners. Slavery obviously redistributes wealth from enslaved people to a slaveholding aristocracy, but that comes at the expense of economic growth for the country overall. This is true both theoretically and empirically. As shown in the GDP chart linked above, the end of slavery didn’t produce an economic collapse, as you would expect of it really was responsible for America’s productivity. There was not even a dip. In fact, ending slavery made America richer, exactly as economic theory would predict: https://www.econlib.org/archives/2014/09/ending_slavery.html

Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by watwut on Sunday November 29, 2020 @03:15AM (#25243748)
It does not inherently exclude wealth from slavery. Historical sources I had seen has slavery to be wastly profitable, that is why they did it.

It was not just reallocation of wealth like tax, it completely changed his money were made.

Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by xyzzyz on Sunday November 29, 2020 @03:33AM (#25243813)
Slavery is very profitable for slave owners, it’s just not very productive. Think about it this way: imagine you run a business, and suddenly one day you no longer have to pay wages to your employees. This obviously makes your profit margin shoot through the roof. However, it doesn’t make your company produce more stuff. That’s the point: slavery was indeed profitable for slave owners, but it did not produce any more wealth than in an alternative scenario, where the slaves were free wage labor instead. Thus, while slavery surely made some slave owners wealthy, it did not make America wealthy, and in fact, it did quite the opposite.
Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by skohan on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:31AM (#25244237)
> Think about it this way: imagine you run a business, and suddenly one day you no longer have to pay wages to your employees... it doesn’t make your company produce more stuff

I don't really understand this argument. Surely reducing one of the operating costs of doing business to zero leads to economic growth right? In your hypothetical scenario, wouldn't the business owner just invest some of that profit into growing the business, thereby increasing productivity?

Alternatively, they can lower their prices in order to beat competitors. If they're producing a commodity, this can have the knock-on effect of lowering the price of finished goods using that commodity.

Another point of comparison is, in places where they discover "free resources" like petrochemicals, like Norway, that does lead to prosperity, doesn't it?

Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by rayiner on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:43AM (#25245060)
You’re not reducing operating costs to zero. Enslaved people are still people, they must be fed, housed, etc. And while reducing the operating cost of say cotton production can make that business bigger, taking those enslaved people out of the market for consumption makes those other businesses smaller.
Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by xyzzyz on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:35PM (#25249894)
> In your hypothetical scenario, wouldn't the business owner just invest some of that profit into growing the business, thereby increasing productivity?

Sure, but imagine the alternative where the slaves are paid workers instead: then the same money that you use to invest into your business in slave scenario is instead spent by your workers on other businesses, which then use it to produce other things or invest in their businesses. Again, slavery, instead of increasing total wealth, just redistributes it in favor of slaveholders.

Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by watwut on Sunday November 29, 2020 @04:25AM (#25243999)
When people say richest country per capita, they dont mean "including native Americans and slaves". Those were not citizens. It is profit and wealth of whites that count.

You are however averaging production to slaves too. So in countries where blacks outnumber whites you get much smaller wealth then what contemporaries commented on.

The alternative scenario is north in any case. The kind of society and production south was is plain impossible without slavery. It just did not exist.

Re:How the self-esteem craze took over America (2017) by rayiner on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:41AM (#25245051)
The GDP per capita statistics include everybody.