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Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by rayiner on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:51AM (#25198383)
The point of carbon capture isn’t to be energy neutral. The point is to be able to take clean energy (say nuclear energy in the United States) and capture carbon from dirty uses (say construction in India).

Carbon capture will have to work because there will be no way to address climate change otherwise. Countries like India and everyone on the continent of Africa will industrialize, they will build vast structures out of concrete and they’ll use cheaper gas power cars and whatever energy they can get their hands on. My home country of Bangladesh will add a 80-100 million people and it’s GDP will increase by a factor of 5 by 2050. The idea that Bangladesh will jeopardize a single percentage point of GDP growth to make that growth carbon neutral as it rushes to bring middle income standards of living to its people is utterly absurd. The country’s CO2 emissions per capita has increased by a factor of five since I was born and it can increase by another factor of 10 before getting to the level of an efficient developed country like France. To compensate for massive CO2 output in those countries, developed countries will have to go carbon negative and capture that CO2.

It’s so obvious I’m not sure how so many people overlook it.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by bluGill on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:13AM (#25198565)
Surely the people of Africa or Bangladesh are not so stupid as to not learn lessons from the US. We have better technology now, so they will use that in a lot of cases.

Don't get me wrong, there are cases where the old way is better because it is cheaper and so they will use that. However they won't use gas cars since we are developing battery cars, solar panels, and the like. Within a few years electric cars will be better for them as well.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by rayiner on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:17AM (#25198602)
It’s not a matter of “stupidity,” but the desire for a better life. A “do nothing” climate change scenario will be bad for Bangladesh, but not as bad as hampering economic growth. By 2060, it will cost Bangladesh a third of its GDP. But put differently, losing a single percentage point of annual GDP growth over that period will be just as bad as the impact from climate change.

New technology will be adopted, but not fast enough. Bangladesh is currently at 4% renewables. But half the country doesn’t even have electricity. It’s building 10 GW of coal capacity by 2030 which will double per capita CO2 output. Gas is still the major energy source with some nuclear being built. There is nowhere to build solar or windmills, though off shore wind is a possibility in the long term. It will be many decades before Bangladesh uses primarily electric vehicles and vast numbers of ICE vehicles will be purchased in the meantime. The number of registered motor vehicles has tripled in the last decade—those are nearly all gas vehicles, and half are used vehicles imported from elsewhere. 80% are motorcycles, with very inefficient gas engines. And there are no alternatives to CO2-production for many construction and industrial processes.

Bangladesh will certainly take some measures to be greener. It has no economic incentive to use more fossil fuels than it needs to: it imports gas and coal and has no domestic industry or jobs in that area to protect. But it also can’t afford to subsidize renewables. It will deploy technologies based on true cost, and right now the cost of renewables + storage isn’t there, neither is the domestic infrastructure to go fully electric.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by wing-_-nuts on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @12:49PM (#25200899)
>A “do nothing” climate change scenario will be bad for Bangladesh, but not as bad as hampering economic growth.

Citation very much needed. Everything I've read about global warming tells me the eventual GDP impact of 'business as usual' warming will dwarf everything else. It's not just the flooding. It's the rise in wet bulb temps, the droughts, the forest fires, etc. This does not magically end at 2100 just because our projections end there. This goes on for millenia.

I cannot fathom, how one could look at the facts and science and come to your conclusion.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by CyanBird on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:33PM (#25201414)
>... tells me the eventual...

To you this is an eventuality, to them the problems are right now, it is right now that they need electricity for the X million people without access to it, it is right now that they have to use huge amounts of concrete to build infrastructure, it is right now that they have to expand their transport/truck fleets to transport food to themselves or the million/several hundred thousands of Roinhya which arrived to the country in the last 2 years

Walk 100 miles in the other person's shoes

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by rayiner on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @02:24PM (#25202035)
A ton of research has been done on the economic impacts of climate change, accounting for those environmental effects. E.g. https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/201...

The mainstream “facts and science” does not support the conclusion that climate change will eventually “dwarf everything else” in the economy, not even for hard-hit countries like Bangladesh. The 1/3 number for Bangladesh by 2060 is one of the higher estimates I’ve seen, from Asian Development Bank. Others show less than 10%.

See also: https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2019/08/19/climate-ch... (“Climate change could cost the U.S. up to 10.5 percent of its GDP by 2100, study finds.”).

10% is a lot! It’s trillions of dollars, and it would be worthwhile to spend a significant amount of money to avoid it. But we need to pay attention to the science.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by tick_tock_tick on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:32PM (#25201392)
Compounding effects.

$1,000,000 5% over 80 years = $49,561,441.07

$1,000,000 4% over 80 years = $23,049,799.07

I don't even think the most outlandish have climate change being greater than 50% of GDP.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by tptacek on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @05:28PM (#25203750)
I'm not sure what the argument is here, because no matter how persuasively you write the message board post, the empirical evidence seems to support Rayiner's argument, which isn't that carbon is good, but that the developing world is carbonizing far more rapidly than the developed world is decarbonizing.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by fomine3 on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:36AM (#25206793)
Negative externality.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by ip26 on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:28PM (#25201352)
Visiting Central America, I noticed all the "hand me downs" from North America. This will be the challenge- new electric cars which are 10% cheaper than new gas cars won't be deployed there, because old gas cars are 90% cheaper than new electric cars.

The good news is the problem will eventually take care of itself when North America doesn't want its old Nissan Leafs anymore. The bad news is the delay.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by bluGill on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:20AM (#25208084)
In 20 years old electric cars will be all they can get.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by mdiesel on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @10:32AM (#25199351)
Yes, but do the patent holders or companies making that better technology see their side of the task: they need to give the developing countries that technology. The problem is that would mean giving a country that can manufacture more cheaply than they can the only thing left as a differentiator.

It's not up for them to try and learn from us, it's up to us to teach them.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by bluGill on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @11:44AM (#25200119)
Patents are only for about 15 years. Most of the important ones have expired already, the rest will in the future. (unlikely copyright).

Developing countries get their cars from developed countries. In 30 they will not have a choice about buying gas cars. 30 years is not that long on a global scale.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by rayiner on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @11:53AM (#25200228)
But 30 years is a long time on the climate change scale. To meet IPCC 1.5C and 2C targets we need to dramatically reduce emissions by 2030. Instead, they will continue to grow rapidly due to development in places like Bangladesh.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by CyanBird on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:37PM (#25201448)
> they will continue to grow rapidly due to development in places like Bangladesh.

Your average Australian consumes many times over the co2 budget than a Bangladeshi, Sudanese or Nigerian combined

To reduce these emissions of the developed world is a far more important objective than Bangladeshis building a couple coal plants so they can give electricity to more than just 40% of their population

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by rayiner on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @03:33PM (#25202722)
That widely misses the mark. There are sixteen times as many Bangladeshis, Sudanese, and Nigerians as there are Australians. And while Australia’s CO2 emissions are declining even as its economy keeps growing, emissions in Bangladesh are growing exponentially. Australia is a mature economy, while Bangladesh’s is currently doubling every decade, and it has many doublings to go before it reaches middle income status. That will come with huge increases in CO2 emissions.

Europe and North America now account for well under 40% of CO2 emissions and their emissions are shrinking: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-co-emissions-by-re.... Emissions in the rest of the world, by contrast, are increasing exponentially. Within a decade or so, India alone will emit more CO2 than the EU.

The current CO2 budget for sticking to 1.5C is about 400 gigatons: https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-the-ipcc-1-5c-repor.... North America and Europe could cut their emissions to zero tomorrow, and the rest of the world will easily blow through that within the next 20 years. China by itself will use up that whole budget by 2050 if not earlier.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by antepodius on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:25AM (#25198661)
If electric cars really are more practical, we'll see that reflected in their adoption.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by Qwertious on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:24PM (#25205332)
Electric cars will certainly be adopted eventually, because electric cars have an order of magnitude fewer parts , but in the short term ICE cars have a far more mature production line (a century of mass production) whereas EVs have been in proper mass production for maybe a decade, and their manufacturing processes are rather immature and changing/improving quickly as a result, but we need to deal with climate change now not once EV chains stabilize.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by jeddy3 on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @03:13PM (#25202528)
> Surely the people of Africa or Bangladesh are not so stupid as to not learn lessons from the US.

Well, everyone everywhere right now keeps doing the stupid thing, despite knowing better.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by bboylen on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @10:58AM (#25199569)
If it is absurd to think that Bangladesh would jeopardize their growth in interest of lowering emissions, how is it not absurd to think that developed countries should neglect their own economic interests in favor of going carbon negative to compensate for countries such as Bangladesh?
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by rayiner on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @12:00PM (#25200312)
The pain of climate change will be harder for developed countries to stomach and so they should be more willing to pay to avoid and mitigate it. Consider the forest fires on the west coast of the US this year. They occupied the news cycle for a week. But they killed just 30-40 people. Floods in Bangladesh regularly kill hundreds of thousands of people every year and people for the most part go on with their lives.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by ravi-delia on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @11:06AM (#25199652)
Because it really makes more sense to plan for the eventuality where anything we do makes a difference than the far more likely one where this entire trainwreck just keeps going straight toward a wall. Sure you get some real points for cynicism before rock meets hard place, but it doesn't count for much outside of that.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by bboylen on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @11:13AM (#25199741)
I of course agree we should do something. I just disagree with the logic that the entire burden falls on developed countries. As well as the magnitude of that burden. Going carbon negative as the parent comment said developed countries "will have to" do, is an incredibly challenging and costly feat.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by bluGill on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @12:07PM (#25200403)
I didn't say they would jeopardize their growth. I said they would learn. They might use coal, but it will be a 60% efficient not 1% efficient system like what we used for the first steam engines.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by ip26 on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:34PM (#25201423)
I agree with almost everything you say. But, if any developing country might sacrifice in the name of carbon neutrality, maybe it could be Bangladesh? Bangladesh & neighboring Myanmar are the 4th and 1st non-island nations most vulnerable to climate change.

That doesn't mean it's by any means guaranteed. But facing climate change is in their interest.

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by trianglem on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:58PM (#25201687)
But how? They need what little money they have to set up their industries in the first place, it’s not a reasonable request especially in light of how currently developed countries didn’t have to deal with any of that when they first industrialized in addition to ruthlessly exploiting the subcontinent for their benefit. It’s an affirmative action of sorts that will benefit everyone until they’re up to par. China is getting there and I presume the other countries will get there eventually.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by ip26 on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @02:18PM (#25201975)
Hopefully somewhere along the line we figure out that it's cheaper to help Bangladesh pay for carbon neutral development than to sequester their carbon for them.

I wonder if a private investor could swoop in on a coal plant project, bankroll an upgrade to something better, and sell offsets on the carbon market in California?

Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by Qwertious on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:32PM (#25205381)
Carbon offsets have been repeatedly shot down in the past - both as an accounting sleight of hand (for instance, what if it bankrolls a solar plant that was going to be built anyway?), and as a decadent excuse to not actually change anything, equivalent to medieval christians buying Indulgences.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by trianglem on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @01:26AM (#25206471)
You’re referring to old timey offsets. A lot of direct carbon capture and sequestration are now available as offsets.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by trianglem on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @02:24PM (#25202032)
That makes a lot of sense.
Re:Is carbon capture a viable solution? by beamatronic on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @09:54AM (#25198941)
The fuel is too cheap. Right up front, it needs to include the cost of its clean up.