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Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by farias0 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:20PM (#25182661)
I don't think we want to foster a sense that we're okay with companies being completely amoral just because everyone's tired of politics. We need to draw lines on basis of basic decency, i.e not supporting slavery, child trafficking and such. Then the discussion comes back to "but where is the line" and bam, we're back into politics.

The American family separation thing the person above you mentioned, for instance, falls into the line of unacceptable for me, but for some people it's an acceptable response to illegal immigration. This is, indeed, very, very hard.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by kortilla on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:51PM (#25183405)
> We need to draw lines on basis of basic decency, i.e not supporting slavery, child trafficking and such.

You do know that the very child separation policy you decry was implemented specifically to prevent child trafficking and keeping children away from people that can’t be verified to be related?

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by farias0 on Monday November 23, 2020 @04:33AM (#25185037)
No, the child separation policy I decry is the byproduct of the zero tolerance policy regarding illegal immigration on the current administration. It does not matter if there is suspicion of child trafficking or not. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/16/us/politics/family-separa...
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by chowchowchow on Monday November 23, 2020 @01:22AM (#25184082)
You’re doing politics.
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by krageon on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:58AM (#25185791)
What the thoughts behind it are doesn't matter. What the reality is does. The reality is terrible, so it should not be supported.
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by markdown on Monday November 23, 2020 @12:13AM (#25183798)
In what world does separating them from their parents, shipping them 2000 miles away and giving them away to evangelical groups a solution to any problem?

Kidnapping doesn't cease to be kidnapping just because it was done by a government official.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by azangru on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:29PM (#25182726)
Can't this be achieved through legal or properly political means? If child trafficking is outlawed then a company cannot engage in child trafficking. If petrol cars are outlawed, then a company cannot manufacture petrol cars.
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by runarberg on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:46PM (#25182828)
I wish, but that is not the world we live in. Child separation is probably illegal under the universal deceleration of human rights (which the USA has ratified).

Article 16 (3):

> The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

When a government sanctioned agency engages in something that is probably illegal (and definitely immoral) and you still think they are worthy of your business, you are complicit in their actions.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by AdamJacobMuller on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:53PM (#25182858)
You moved the benchmark from "child trafficking" to "child separation."

Many would argue, correctly or not, that the policies of not having children housed with whatever adult they cross the border with is in service of avoiding child trafficking.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by runarberg on Sunday November 22, 2020 @09:37PM (#25183089)
Sorry about that, it is just that ICE were probably breaking the law when they engaged in child separation. The parent is asking if it couldn’t simply be the case that evil things would rather be illegal then up to a company. Unfortunately we demonstrably live in a world where evil things that are probably illegal are still done by a government sanction agencies. Child separation is the thing that they do which demonstrates this. That is why I moved the benchmark.
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by BurningCycles on Monday November 23, 2020 @01:18AM (#25184067)
As I understand it, the reason for child separation is that they can't certify that the adult traveling with them is their actual parent, and given that child trafficking is a reality and much worse than potentially being temporarily separated from your parent, I can't see what other solution is at the table ?
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by lawnchair_larry on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:35AM (#25187112)
There is also no such policy for legal asylum seekers. It’s easy to avoid.
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by useragent86 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:12PM (#25183246)
> ICE were probably breaking the law when they engaged in child separation.

Didn't the Ninth Circuit federal court order ICE to follow this practice? See the Flores Consent Decree.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by krageon on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:59AM (#25185796)
It doesn't matter if the court says it's okay - it can still be a crime internationally (which it quite obviously is in this case).
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by AdamJacobMuller on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:10PM (#25183241)
I don't see the link between:

> The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

and:

"children and their parents must be housed together when incarcerated"

That clause (perhaps the entire UN declaration of human rights) seems incredibly ambiguous. Reading the whole declaration seems like it, perhaps, means protection of the specific enumerated rights of part 16 sections 1/2 which seems basically like the right for anyone to marry or not anyone they want and for that person to terminate the marriage when they choose.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by runarberg on Sunday November 22, 2020 @11:10PM (#25183491)
ICE didn’t just separate the family units during incarceration, they also failed to reunify them on release. They also forcibly sterilized other asylum seekers which is a whole another human rights violation. The USA has also signed—though not ratified—the 1989 Declaration of the Rights of the Child which has more explicit protections. I believe this was confirmed in US courts as they quickly issued an injunction of this practice.

There is also the issue of why they are incarcerated in the first place. They have committed no crime, migration and seeking refuge is protected under international law.

The UN universal declaration of human rights is written to be easily accessible and understood by the general public. And given that it was written 75 years ago I think they did a good job. I actually recommend everyone to read it entirely in your native language, as it has probably been translated into it and will only take a few minutes. A beautiful document indeed.

The important thing here though is not how rigorously defined these rights are, but the spirit of the law is clearly saying that the family is a fundamental unit of society. Separating the family unit is a failure to uphold that principal.

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by dash2 on Monday November 23, 2020 @01:19AM (#25184076)
Is there evidence for that forced sterilisation claim? I found this Guardian story but it only details an allegation, which hardly cuts it for such a serious crime: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/17/ice-hy...

I must admit it sounds like the stuff of paranoid fantasy.

Update: this from Channel 4 seems reasonably calm and balance. I had to hunt through a lot of clickbaity headlines to find it: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-were-mass-...

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by krageon on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:00AM (#25185803)
> I must admit it sounds like the stuff of paranoid fantasy.

For a country with a documented history of disrespect for bodily autonomy it seems entirely in line with expected behaviour to me.

[dead]
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by nagaiaida on Monday November 23, 2020 @01:47PM (#25190117)
Does it not?

>Over the six-year period that had followed the passage of the Family Planning Services and Population Research Act of 1970, physicians sterilized perhaps 25% of Native American women of childbearing age, and there is evidence suggesting that the numbers were actually even higher.

https://time.com/5737080/native-american-sterilization-histo...

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by boogies on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:52AM (#25188021)
Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by dane-pgp on Sunday November 22, 2020 @09:56PM (#25183183)
> having children housed with whatever adult they cross the border with

What is the threat model here? If the adult they are crossing with is trying to sell the child in the US, then having the adult and child detained together still prevents this.

Also, at $250 for a paternity test, wouldn't a cost-benefit analysis make it rational to do that rather than risk the (more expensive) harm of separating a child from their parent?

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by chordalkeyboard on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:27PM (#25205011)
> If the adult they are crossing with is trying to sell the child in the US, then having the adult and child detained together still prevents this.

Until the detention is over and then you release them together?

One threat model is child abuse. Detaining them together enables abuse. Another threat model is deceiving the government about the child trafficking. Separating the child and the adult allows investigators to question them separately without the adult coaching the child when investigators are not present.

> Also, at $250 for a paternity test, wouldn't a cost-benefit analysis make it rational to do that rather than risk the (more expensive) harm of separating a child from their parent?

This is a good point but not all children are biological offspring of their legal parents. When you suspect trafficking and the adult claims the child is adopted what do you do?

Re:To do politics or not do politics? Tech startups are divided by fierarul on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:08AM (#25184255)
Don't the current laws define the lines on basic decency? That's what the companies should follow. And I believe many should strive for that instead: there's loads of companies doing illegal things to their employees!

So, being political at a company level means defining a morals for companies that transcends de jure laws. Which is, basically, another set of uber-laws but without any real oversight nor finesse.

In the end refusing selling a computer to ICE should be like refusing to sell a soda to a black person: a clear case of discrimination. And companies should be threatened with dissolution if so; moral focused groups can then just create foundations or churches instead.