The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable

Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by wwarner on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @05:14PM (#25143191)

Her frustration with the priorities of theoretical physics probably is justified, but in this case I disagree with @skdh. Her claim is that any solution for the BHIP cannot be falsified, and that strikes me as too pessimistic for two reasons. First, look at the results of pushing the theory harder with respect to spinning black holes. Many predictions of Kerr's theory have been observed, even if the ring singularity at the center hasn't. Second, we're observing new black hole phenomena every day, and if black holes really do explode at the end of evaporation, then maybe that is also observable. Sure, Hawking radiation is normally too small to be directly observed, but the theory can be driven into a place where it can make a testable prediction.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by avz on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @06:57PM (#25144386)

> and if black holes really do explode at the end of evaporation, then maybe that is also observable

I suppose her reason to assume we can't observe this is that evaporation takes extremely long time. For example, a solar mass black hole will take about 10^64 years to evaporate [1] (this is approximately 7 * 10^54 times the age of the universe). Note that astronomical black holes are heavier than the Sun, so take even longer to evaporate.

I suppose the micro black holes [2] might offer a glimmer of hope, but these objects are entirely hypothetical.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation#Black_hole_e... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by adrianN on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:50AM (#25147517)

Creating a microscopic black hole is not completely out of our reach. https://arxiv.org/abs/0908.1803 discusses this topic a bit. If the assumptions there are not wrong, and climate change doesn't get us first, creating small black holes might be become possible an a couple of generations.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by ddxxdd on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @06:07PM (#25143859)

I completely agree with this.

Ancient philosophers debated the existence of atoms for centuries; then Boltzmann took the theory up to second gear by discovering the implications on temperature and entropy, and then Einstein proved their existence beyond a shadow of a doubt through his work on Brownian motion.

It might take centuries of mathematical work to discover an artifact of quantum gravity that's observable within our macroscopic world, but the work must be done.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by phkahler on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @08:17PM (#25145090)

>> Her claim is that any solution for the BHIP cannot be falsified, and that strikes me as too pessimistic for two reasons.

No. She said there isn't any data. I know the word falsify has become prominent in the last 15 years or so, but a "theory" that doesn't agree with some real world data is just a hypothesis. In other words a theory needs confirmation in addition to not being falsified. This is where the divide should exist between physics and mathematics. You can have a bunch of cool math, but that's not physics. It's not scientific theory by itself. You can hypothesize that it describes the real world, but until there is confirming evidence that assertion is just mental self-gratification.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by mikeappell on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:03PM (#25146098)

> until there is confirming evidence that assertion is just mental self-gratification.

I'd say this is a bit overly negative. There's value in developing theories and frameworks which aren't yet provable but should be as soon as technology or other theoretical frameworks catch up.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by edgyquant on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:19PM (#25146190)

But those, by definition, are not theories they are hypothesis.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by mikeappell on Thursday November 19, 2020 @03:24PM (#25153921)

I'm pushing back on describing them as 'mental self-gratification', as that seems like it implies a lack of value in them, potential if not immediate.

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Re:The Black Hole information loss problem is unsolvable by phkahler on Thursday November 19, 2020 @09:11PM (#25156684)

>> I'm pushing back on describing them as 'mental self-gratification'

I said "You can have a bunch of cool math, but that's not physics. It's not scientific theory by itself. You can hypothesize that it describes the real world, but until there is confirming evidence that assertion is just mental self-gratification."

The math can be cool - and often is. It's the unsubstantiated claim that it underpins reality that is whackin' ones brain.

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