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Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by jeffbee on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:32PM (#25132903)
Is there any plausible scenario in which American carriers aren't all at the bottom of the ocean after the first five minutes of a conflict with China?
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by netflixandkill on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:11PM (#25133138)
The scenario in which both China and the US are trying to minimize escalation to avoid all out nuclear war while still countering some regional moves or proxy wars.

US wargaming had repeatedly found that escalation to nuclear exchanges is all but a given if serious attempts are made by either side to destroy naval and air base capability, and it's safe to assume their PLA counterparts reached similar conclusions.

As an example, in a Chinese move against Taiwan or Japan, anything that crossed into attack range would get destroyed, but there would be no counter-attacks against Chinese facilities and bases. Does that play out in reality? Let's hope we don't find out.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by magicsmoke on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @12:25AM (#25133503)
>but there would be no counterattack against Chinese facilities and bases.

I think this is the key asymmetry in a US-China war, and whether US aircraft carriers can be sunk or not is irrelevant. At the end of the day, a carrier is a floating air base, and both China and the US need aircraft to provide targeting data for their munitions. In a sense Chinese airstrips are even more vulnerable to missile strikes as they can't move or hide, yet they can't be attacked because that could invite nuclear escalation. If sinking a US aircraft carrier posed the same risk of nuclear escalation would we even be worrying about their vulnerability to missile strikes?

This seems more like a strategic problem than a tactical problem regarding carrier defense. If China is more committed and willing to escalate than the US, then sooner or later there'll be a line where China's willing to cross but the US won't.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by netflixandkill on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @05:47AM (#25135309)
In these escalation scenarios either both sides commit to non-escalation or it doesn't matter. I don't know if current US policy had a nuclear retaliation for a strike against a carrier group, but it is such a high probability that any adversary likely considers is as true.

China or whomever attacking a carrier to destroy it with anything other than 1945 style surface warfare tactics leads to nuclear war, even if it's not the final decision point. The response to such an attack leads to nuclear war in enough projections.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by magicsmoke on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:46AM (#25138049)
I doubt it. Losing a military asset means the US will start throwing civilian assets into the pot and gambling with MAD? The civilian population will revolt when they realize that the Navy wants to double down with NY and SF because they're throwing a tantrum over losing Nimitz.

In the same way, the US should keep strikes on Chinese military facilities on the table. But escalation is much likelier because those facilities are located in civilian areas and near nuclear missile sites. That's a perfect analogue of the strategic asymmetry. China and it's civilian population actually lives in the area. The US is just visiting with military assets, and losing a civilian is a tragedy but losing a member of the military is the job they signed up for.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by alextheparrot on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:36PM (#25132919)
The US has over 10 active carriers and did learn some lessons from Pearl Harbor in terms of concentrating ships in one place or region.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by ww520 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @03:22AM (#25134342)
With their vast size carriers have hundreds of water-tight compartments and it's very unlikely to sink a carrier even with multiple direct hits.

It's a pretty hard problem to hit a carrier in the middle of the ocean.

1. It's difficult to locate a carrier group in the vast ocean, even with the help of satellites. The earth's curvature make surface level radars ineffective.

2. A carrier is not a sitting target. The carrier battle group is armed to the teeth to neutralize any threat from air, sea, and underwater within its defense perimeter. Its AWACS can detect objects upto several hundreds miles away.

3. Ships getting close need to overcome the barrage of fire power from the CBG's fighters, missiles, destroyers, and submarines.

4. Aircrafts getting close need to overcome the CBG's air defense - fighters and destroyer's AEGIS system.

5. Submarines are a realistic threat, but USN has lots of experience countering that.

6. Long range cruise missiles fired from outside of the defense perimeter could be a threat, but cruise missiles are slow and can be shot down. Also see 1 for guiding the cruise missiles thousands miles away toward a moving carrier.

7. Hyper sonic cruise missiles are a bigger threat but they have much shorter range. Their firing platforms would be destroyed trying to get close.

8. Ballistic missiles are the new threat but they have their own problems. Target location (see 1). Their terminal radar has a very short time window to locate and lock on the carrier after exiting the descent EM blackout. It takes time to fly to the general area. A 5000 miles/hour missile would take half hour to travel 2500 miles. Meanwhile the carrier is moving away, could be up to dozens of miles away.

U.S. have ballistic missile launching detection mechanism (radars and satellites) that can detect the missile at the moment of the launch.

The SM-3 test adds a new arsenal of defense against the ballistic missiles. It's certain that the laser based defense system probably is being tested or may be have already been deployed.

Edit: realistically drones will be a bigger problem for a CBG going forward.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by evilos on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @04:24AM (#25134773)
Some counter points:

- You don't need to sink an aircraft carrier to mission kill it. Even one hit to the deck will probably neutralize it's ability to launch/recover aircraft.

- Submarines and satellites are/will be enough to locate surface naval fleets.

- Once you've located your target, you can simply overwhelm it's defenses with massive missile barrage. Whether the missiles are ballistic, hypersonic, or traditional sea skimming AShm doesn't matter. The economics are in the attackers favor. Defenders must target each incoming with multiple anti missiles, and can only carry so many. The enemy will simply win by sheer numbers as they have no practical carrying capacity.

It seems pretty clear that carriers would need to be far, far away from any near peer adversary in a shooting war. At least until enemy subs and satellites are out of the picture. Even then you risk ballistic missile attack from the Chinese interior if your location is somehow discovered.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by ww520 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @05:49AM (#25135319)
The slower under water submarines would have a hard time searching for moving surface ships in a radius of couple hundred miles.

Satellites are very good at focusing at narrow strips of area. Searching over a wide angle of field of vision still is a hard problem.

You have to get close to the CBG to start the overwhelming campaign. The delivery platforms are likely to be destroyed long before they get close enough.

The CBG itself has a massive arsenal. It can deliver its own overwhelming firing. Besides carrying planes the carrier is a huge missile firing platform.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by evilos on Thursday November 19, 2020 @02:46AM (#25147146)
> You have to get close to the CBG to start the overwhelming campaign. The delivery platforms are likely to be destroyed long before they get close enough.

Not anymore, see ballistic anti ship missiles (range ~ 1800 miles), long range bombers equipped with long range missiles, and long range hypersonic missiles likely spotted on their long range bombers:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37662/chinese-long-ran...

https://twitter.com/tshugart3/status/991832711013728256/phot...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37465/new-images-of-ch...

> The CBG itself has a massive arsenal. It can deliver its own overwhelming firing. Besides carrying planes the carrier is a huge missile firing platform.

You can fit more missiles on the continent than you can on ships. That's really the end of the argument.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by nradov on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:58PM (#25133373)
It depends how the conflict starts. If China launches a sneak attack with no warning then they would have a pretty good chance of taking out whichever two or three carriers happen to be in the western Pacific Ocean at the time. But if the conflict starts with a minor incident and then escalates the US Navy might have a chance to shoot down most Chinese reconasaince satellites first. Those antiship IRBMs have limited sensors and guidance so they have to be precisely targeted at launch to have a chance of hitting anything. The best way to do targeting is with a constellation of radar satellites, but those satellites are relatively easy to shoot down.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by ampdepolymerase on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:50AM (#25133884)
No country right now has a monopoly on ASAT technology and geosynchronous satellites are not exactly uncommon either. Should ASAT be used in a regional conflict, the entire world's access to space could easily be denied due to the after effects. It unlikely that shooting down satellites would be the first choice in a small conflict.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by nradov on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:27AM (#25134065)
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Radar reconnaissance satellites are in lower orbits, not geosynchronous. Any conflict between nuclear armed superpowers wouldn't be small, and avoiding orbital debris wouldn't be a priority.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by sbierwagen on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:31AM (#25134087)
1.) I don't know of any ASAT missile that can hit satellites in GEO. Because,

2.) All reconnaissance satellites are in much lower orbits. GEO is 35,786km. Huanjing, PRC's military radar sats, are at 650km. USA-234 is at 1,107km.

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by jeffbee on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:26AM (#25137782)
USA's big demonstration of its anti-satellite capability was at only 250km. Sandbagged, perhaps, but we don't know. Again I feel it is much, much more likely that both sides will simply try to take over the other side's space assets, rather than using kinetic anti-satellite weapons that litter space with tiny chunks of garbage.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by cinquemb on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @12:40AM (#25133581)
> might have a chance to shoot down most Chinese reconnaissance satellites first… The best way to do targeting is with a constellation of radar satellites, but those satellites are relatively easy to shoot down…

Seems wasteful, better to have root access (like via X-37b) to them now ahead of time and reroute attacks en route in real time if/when the time comes. Using enemy infrastructure to take out their own seems most efficient.

The whole "Hack A Satellite"[0] partnered with USAF and DDS seems like its leaning operationally in that direction more and more for at least recruitment.

[0] https://nyan-sat.com/

Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by mhh__ on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @09:38AM (#25137221)
The NRO do apparently have football field sized antenna arrays parked near comm sats, so I would guess the hack the satellite thing was to find how much further ahead they are rather than as a proof of concept
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by jeffbee on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @12:54AM (#25133636)
In cyberwarfare it somehow seems far more likely that the Chinese or even the Russians will use our assets against us, not the other way around.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by cinquemb on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:00AM (#25133658)
If you are considering cyberwarfare the targeting of satellites of weapon systems, and not what most people consider cyberwarfare, I think all sides would be prudent to target such capabilities equally.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by onepointsixC on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:24AM (#25134057)
China's "carrier killer" missiles are all IRBM's, which have significantly less velocity than ICBM's, and thus are easier to intercept. Given the capability demonstrated in the article you cannot conclusively say that the PLARF would succeed in an attack on a CSG.
Re:US Navy destroyer shoots down an ICBM in milestone test by ashtonkem on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @12:22AM (#25133480)
Carriers parked further than 5 minutes worth of missile flight time away?