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Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by whalesalad on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @12:31PM (#25126611)
Even if 10 years from now we discover that wearing a mask was a completely pointless endeavor .... the cost of wearing a mask is SO LOW that it is worth doing it.

But it is scientifically proven to limit the rate of the spread, which is the least I can do to protect myself and those around me.

I don't care if I get covid ... I don't think it will kill me based on my vitals. However, we don't fully understand the long term physical and mental health implications of having it (both neurological and psychological), we don't understand it from a 'pre-existing condition' standpoint, and hey who knows it could hit me like a train and do me serious harm or kill me. Plus, I would like to further the goal of eliminating the virus entirely, and not spreading it to others helps that.

I can't believe there are still people out there clamoring to the idea that there is any other way.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by eej71 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:37PM (#25127714)
A counter point to consider - and one that I consider to be a little more rational - is that - what if in the messaging to get people to wear masks - we have inadvertantly encouraged riskier behavior?

As an analogy, I'd explain it like this. What if in the process to encourage people to wear seatbelts, drivers who did that then felt entitled to drive even faster thus resulting in even worse accidents and more frequent ones at that. Of course, no driver would actually think like that.

While I wear my mask, I do wonder about its overall effectiveness especially if in total we all engage in riskier behavior that we wouldn't have otherwise if we simply lived with the basic fear that you have to stay away from everyone.

Masks "help", but maybe they "help" most by thinking of them as not a help at all. It's a tough paradox to encode into public health messaging.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by gustavo_duarte on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:57PM (#25128028)
This is an interesting argument, and it's hard to say anything without data, which would be hard to measure imo.

As a counter, my intuition is that masks also remind people of the risks and actually encourage safe behavior. I feel this in myself, a greater awareness of the pandemic, a nudge towards being more careful. Extending your analogy, it's as if the seatbelt reminded people that there are some pretty grisly accidents out there, and maybe they should take it easy.

Both effects probably exist, not sure what wins out, and how much it matters.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by mensetmanusman on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:28PM (#25128461)
This is called risk compensation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by guenthert on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:16PM (#25128299)
I don't know about seat-belts or how this relates to mask wearing, but I was astonished when I learned that my car insurance (some ten years ago) was unwilling to give me a lower rate based on my car being equipped with ABS. Their stated reasoning was, that ABS led to riskier driver behavior and no net safety gain.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by aaronbrethorst on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:11PM (#25128210)
what if in the messaging to get people to wear masks - we have inadvertantly encouraged riskier behavior?

It doesn't.

https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1259865394044690433

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by foogazi on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:01PM (#25128080)
> Of course, no driver would actually think like that.

There’s your answer then

fwiw, I wear a mask when I HAVE to go out for groceries, and avoid going out on unnecessary errands (shopping, dining out)

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by roywiggins on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:47PM (#25127855)
Everyone wears masks in NYC and there was no COVID uptick until the last month or so.

even if it encourages risky behavior, there's no evidence that it does it enough to translate to higher spread overall, which is what matters. As long as the net impact doesn't increase transmission, they're not a problem.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by telcal on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:46PM (#25132978)
"Everyone" wears masks in NYC? I don't know where exactly you're talking about but that's definitely not true. Certain neighborhoods are better than others but even so there are tons who don't.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by roywiggins on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @03:13PM (#25141829)
There are neighborhoods that are much less mask-compliant than others, but in my day-to-day, the vast majority of people I see are in masks. It's certainly enough to say that wearing masks doesn't make COVID spread worse at a population level.

The worst neighborhoods for COVID over the summer were ones that were known for poor mask compliance, anyway.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by smileysteve on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:37PM (#25127704)
What I don't get, is even for the people saying that the symptoms are like the flu. Clearly they don't remember having the flu, because if I can wear a mask to avoid any fever, that is a reasonable cost to me.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by tonywastaken on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:04PM (#25128121)
Yeah, last time I had the flu it sucked. And I'm relatively young.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by veemjeem on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:03PM (#25127171)
I think the pre-existing condition is what scares me the most. There have been studies on people who recovered from SARS, and these people still suffer from fatigue and brain fog over 4 years later.
[dead]
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by irscott on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:23PM (#25127477)
I work a super physical job in a warehouse and the mask hasn't affected my job in any way.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by jasonlaramburu on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:00PM (#25127118)
So does catching covid
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by guenthert on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:22PM (#25127459)
The cost is the alarming sight, causing the economic crisis. In Santa Clara/CA so far only some 400 people died of COVID-19, i.e. about 2 a day, while some 40 a day die of unrelated causes. Yet, if you step outside, you might think the Zombie apocalypse is happening.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by chillwaves on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:24PM (#25128404)
If you let COVID run rampant, you will see higher death rates. It's not much of an argument to compare the death rate while mitigating practices are in place.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by guenthert on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:53PM (#25129673)
See below for the numbers of Sweden, where there are few mitigating practices mandated.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by foogazi on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:09PM (#25128181)
Is that a 5% increase in mortality from a disease that didn’t exist a year ago?

Looking at it another way: I don’t smoke because I don’t want to risk pulmonary disease. Am I hurting the economy?

I don’t expect everyone to care about my life (maybe I’ll cause a blip in some chart) - but I do above almost everything else.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by rkeene2 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:14PM (#25128258)
There are two factors involved that are similar, but not managed the same way.

1. Hospital Capacity: Economic shutdowns have been largely to manage Hospital capacity since if all the hospitals in an area are overwhelmed, the death toll will grow since patients suffering any kind of acute issue will have nowhere to turn

2. The spread of disease (COVID-19): This is what is trying to be controlled by encouraging people to perform effective steps to limit the spread (with a second-order effect of reducing demand on the hospital) -- that is, if less people get the disease, less people die from the disease, and we can get a vaccine program and have an overall lower casualty rate from COVID-19.

Both of these strategies do not have to be employed.

For example, in the case where there's no effective vaccine in the near future, it might make sense to simply ensure that everyone gets infected at a slow enough rate that Hospital Capacity is not critical. This is because with this pandemic, over a long enough timeline (and again, without an effective vaccine), everyone will get the disease eventually. So in this scenario you are simply concerned about managing hospital capacity, and your tools are masks, social distancing, and economic shutdowns -- no need to track the infection, etc. Some locales are using this approach, and shutting down hot-spots without too much focus on how the disease is spreading, but most developed countries are tracking the spread much more closely and can be more targeted with the guidance. This was likely the initial thinking of many people, and why a shutdown did not occur before disease had spread widely.

On the other hand, if you assume a compliant population a near total economic shutdown to for a short period of time, with strict social distancing and containment measure to ensure that there is no spread, along with no new individuals, and a strong track-trace policy, then you can eradicate the cases with minimal masks. This is basically what China did, as far as I understand it. This was the initial model other locales tried to implement when they went into "Lockdown"-mode, but were not as successful, also -- again, from my limited understanding as a lay person.

On a third hand, if we assume we are going to have an effective vaccine in the near future (which was FAR from certain when this whole thing played out) it makes more sense to do both in concert -- that is, primarily limit the total number of people infected (masks and social distancing; this is because the long term outcomes of people afflicted with COVID-19 are unknown, limit that unknown risk) with a secondary task of managing Hospital capacity to prevent things from becoming catastrophic. This is sort-of where most locales have landed at the moment: Mandate masks (slow the spread) and shutdown hot-spots as they are detected (manage hospital capacity).

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by roywiggins on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:49PM (#25127893)
I find people not wearing masks much more alarming than people not wearing them. I am much more alarmed at the prospect of mass death than people wearing jaunty masks.
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by guenthert on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:08PM (#25128172)
In Sweden, where there's little mandated, so far only some 6000 out of 10 million died of COVID-19. That is significant (in the statistical sense), but hardly mass death (given that in the relevant time frame some 40000 died of unrelated causes).

Masks alone don't cause the widespread panic, mass media did their part.

Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by triceratops on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:14PM (#25129141)
In Sweden, they have socialized healthcare, strong unions, and robust social safety net, and an overall healthier population. So America should copy those things too right?
Re:South Dakota nurse says many dying patients still insist ... by roywiggins on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:54PM (#25128797)
Ah, but I don't live in Sweden, I live in NYC. So, mass death is on my mind.

Nobody here panicked in February, or the first week of March. We were more or less going about our daily lives like normal, because that's what the state health people told us to do. Nobody wore masks, nobody social distanced.

By April 1st, NYC was seeing 500 deaths a day and increasing. It's the largest mass casualty event in NYC since 9/11, and was much worse, in body-count terms. It was comparable to the 1918 flu epidemic.

https://www.healio.com/news/infectious-disease/20200821/exce...

Of course, a NYC-level of mass death is absolutely not guaranteed to happen elsewhere. Different populations, different habits, luck- there's variables. But do not tell me that it's media hysteria when you didn't listen to ambulance sirens for a month.