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Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:33AM (#25121735)
> It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit.

This "2%" figure is a top contender for "the biggest load of bullshit in politics" award, I (as a German, if it's relevant) hate it with a passion.

The reason is simple - all this target does is incentivize waste and disincentivize control and oversight. After all, if the only thing that's compared is how much money was spent... what's to keep states from blowing the money on bullshit and hoping that the US will save their butt once again?

What would be way better is to define goals on capability targets. Like... France being responsible for having one combat ready aircraft carrier, Germany 200 tanks, UK 7 nuclear submarines. That way governments would be incentivized to keep the vendors accountable to deliver safe and working products at reasonable cost, instead of basically letting them do whatever the f..k they want and milking the taxpayers for shit like marine helicopters that aren't certified for flight over sea (German NH90 scandal).

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by nradov on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:45AM (#25123634)
If Germany was actually making a contribution to the common NATO defense then I doubt anyone would quibble about whether they were complying with the 2% target or not. The real problem is that the German military has been reduced to a jobs program and is no longer combat effective. Do they have any working submarines now or are they still all broken? How many aircraft are actually mission capable today?
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:17AM (#25124682)
> the common NATO defense

Against whom? In practice, NATO is an offensive alliance: Afghanistan, Libya and Bosnia were not defensive wars.

NATO military spending already dwarfs that of any potential rival. Every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent on social programs, hospitals, schools, and other things that actually improve people's lives. Rather than pressuring everyone to ratchet up military spending, the world would be much better served by disarmament.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by microtherion on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:21AM (#25122893)
Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that the same political parties who generally claim to be the most opposed to government waste are most enthusiastic to measure military strength by amount of money / percentage of GDP spent.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by krapp on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:30AM (#25122977)
Obviously they don't consider that spending a waste.

The NIH, NOAA, CDC, National Science Foundation, EPA, food stamps, farm subsidies, low income housing, and anything Obama ever cared about are obviously just wasting taxpayer dollars. But we need those extra aircraft carriers.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by dirtyid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:42AM (#25121801)
I don't disagree, I don't know what a sensible contribution system for NATO should be. Only how it's structure right now isn't working for US, and it's probably not going achieve Macron's desire for an European Army fit for EU foreign policy... which remains a meme on the level of India Superpower 2020. EU has all individual components and industrial capability to forge something formidable. But the nature of the Union is an unending coordination problem.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by mytailorisrich on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:14AM (#25124637)
NATO is an instrument of US power. When Trump says European countries should pay in more he is wanting his cake and eating it, too.

Yes, Europeans should invest more in Defence, but not in NATO, which should be let to fade into history.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by dirtyid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:02AM (#25125304)
Sure, hence jab about European Army. A coalition of countries that can make Airbus should be able to cobble together functional defense. Or semiconductors, or indigenous tech platforms to rival silicon valley. They just haven't. I personally think EU just hasn't been pressured hard enough to try sincerely, but I wouldn't rule out that maybe EU is just systematically incapable.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by mytailorisrich on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:17AM (#25125494)
A common defense is a big integration step.

The military is the strong arm of the political power. Giving a military branch to the EU would seal the deal in terms of creating a federal state.

This is why such initiatives are very limited and often more symbolic than anything else (e.g. Franco-German units) because sovereignty and control are very tricky matters to handle.

Then some countries, notably Germany, have issues with military power for historical reasons.