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Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by dirtyid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:45AM (#25121145)
>will not treat their fishing vessels in the same way.

Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan, South/North Korea have all seized Chinese fishing vessels before. Some recently. These countries also regularly seize each other's illegal fishing boats, the entire region is an overlapping web maritime disputes. The difference is China is a juggernaut, larger in population and economy than all other claimants combined. 14 Trillion GDP = capabilities to vastly out muscle everyone else. Same story with SCS islands, where China was _responding_ to other claimants reclamation and weaponization efforts. But Chinese reclaiming at Chinese scale will crush everyone else.

The fishing parallel is growing Chinese coast guard and structuring of maritime militia means Chinese fishing vessels get better support and more lenient treatment from other coat guards as Chinese force balance grows. Recent Chinese SCS skirmishes are relatively peaceful compared to others, whose mutual clashes frequently escalate to bloodshed because small peer countries can escalate and be brutal to each other. Obviously such reports rarely gets attention in western reporting, nor that per capita China underfishes, or fishing fleets from other wealthier per capita countries is sustained through foreign slave labour, whereas China's is just... cheap Chinese labour.

China SCS Monroe doctrine is balancing from this perspective. Philippines finally agreed to "cooperate" with China on SCS oil exploration, setting up frameworks for other members. RCEP this week without US or India. Short of war with USN, it's just a matter of time before China tames the SCS. For context, this is newly projected growth of PLA Navy 14th five-year plan for 2025. Only surface combatants.

https://preview.redd.it/yxsbgotn6kz51.jpg?width=1024&auto=we...

In the next 5 years, China will build approximately entire Japanese Navy in tonnage. It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit. And as Australia, Japan, Korea are setting record high defense budget growth, China will be increasing national defense by 6.6% this year, lowest in decades. This is the fundamental reality of disportionate Chinese scale and industrial capability, even modest spending means the kind of acquisitions that will make neighbours shit bricks and US worry over hegemony. The alternative is... China not spending money a reasonable amount on defense and modernization, not enforcing her claims, which is a ridiculous expectation.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by yorwba on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:43AM (#25121417)
> Chinese reclaiming at Chinese scale will crush everyone else.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The whole reason they have to resort to land reclamation to create artificial islands for their military bases is that they were late to the party and all the good spots on existing islands were already taken, mostly by Vietnamese bases: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Spratly_...

Now holding those islands doesn't help Vietnamese fishermen much when they encounter other countries' coast guards out in the open sea, but the bases still provide a convenient place to shelter if they happen to be close by.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by dirtyid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:28AM (#25121690)
Vietnam has the most features, but no ability to engineer them to match Chinese capabilities. The islands themselves are marginal, good for small landing strip and some basic installations, most need an inordinate amount of work and investment to become useful. Vietnam is simply incapable of producing a dredging company as large as Chinese CCCC, a byproduct of serving a country with 1.4B people. I think Mischief Reef alone reclaimed 1400 acres, about 10x than all Vietnamese dredging efforts. It's a massive undertaking but relative to goals. Vietnam's goal is just to claim stakes, which they can do with something as rudimentary as brick buildings, a dirt landing strip for supplies and DK1 rigs. Also see Philippines' Sierra Madre on Thomas Shoal, literally a beached ship to base a handful marines out of. China's goal is to push back USN, which requires a legit base, full runway for modern fighters, reinforced hangars and all associated support infrastructure. There's also work on geoengineering fresh water and agriculture to strengthen claims - turn feature into proper island for EEZ rights. If properly weaponized, it could make every USN asset in SCS vulnerable. During a shooting war, it would get wiped, but there's enough hardened infrastructure that US would expend substantial munitions. It's just another scale of construction and capabilities.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by friendlybus on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:49AM (#25121864)
China increasing it's defense budget still hasn't encouraged it's neighbours to acquire what is necessary in a real war, nukes. If a real fight were necessary you would see increases in the MAD equipment.

Military expenditure is just a good excuse to jumpstart a high tech manufacturing economy.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:33AM (#25121735)
> It will do so with ~2% of GDP in defense spending, basically what Trump wants NATO members to comit.

This "2%" figure is a top contender for "the biggest load of bullshit in politics" award, I (as a German, if it's relevant) hate it with a passion.

The reason is simple - all this target does is incentivize waste and disincentivize control and oversight. After all, if the only thing that's compared is how much money was spent... what's to keep states from blowing the money on bullshit and hoping that the US will save their butt once again?

What would be way better is to define goals on capability targets. Like... France being responsible for having one combat ready aircraft carrier, Germany 200 tanks, UK 7 nuclear submarines. That way governments would be incentivized to keep the vendors accountable to deliver safe and working products at reasonable cost, instead of basically letting them do whatever the f..k they want and milking the taxpayers for shit like marine helicopters that aren't certified for flight over sea (German NH90 scandal).

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by nradov on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:45AM (#25123634)
If Germany was actually making a contribution to the common NATO defense then I doubt anyone would quibble about whether they were complying with the 2% target or not. The real problem is that the German military has been reduced to a jobs program and is no longer combat effective. Do they have any working submarines now or are they still all broken? How many aircraft are actually mission capable today?
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by DiogenesKynikos on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:17AM (#25124682)
> the common NATO defense

Against whom? In practice, NATO is an offensive alliance: Afghanistan, Libya and Bosnia were not defensive wars.

NATO military spending already dwarfs that of any potential rival. Every dollar spent on the military is a dollar not spent on social programs, hospitals, schools, and other things that actually improve people's lives. Rather than pressuring everyone to ratchet up military spending, the world would be much better served by disarmament.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by microtherion on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:21AM (#25122893)
Yes, it never ceases to amaze me that the same political parties who generally claim to be the most opposed to government waste are most enthusiastic to measure military strength by amount of money / percentage of GDP spent.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by krapp on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:30AM (#25122977)
Obviously they don't consider that spending a waste.

The NIH, NOAA, CDC, National Science Foundation, EPA, food stamps, farm subsidies, low income housing, and anything Obama ever cared about are obviously just wasting taxpayer dollars. But we need those extra aircraft carriers.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by dirtyid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:42AM (#25121801)
I don't disagree, I don't know what a sensible contribution system for NATO should be. Only how it's structure right now isn't working for US, and it's probably not going achieve Macron's desire for an European Army fit for EU foreign policy... which remains a meme on the level of India Superpower 2020. EU has all individual components and industrial capability to forge something formidable. But the nature of the Union is an unending coordination problem.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by mytailorisrich on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:14AM (#25124637)
NATO is an instrument of US power. When Trump says European countries should pay in more he is wanting his cake and eating it, too.

Yes, Europeans should invest more in Defence, but not in NATO, which should be let to fade into history.

Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by dirtyid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:02AM (#25125304)
Sure, hence jab about European Army. A coalition of countries that can make Airbus should be able to cobble together functional defense. Or semiconductors, or indigenous tech platforms to rival silicon valley. They just haven't. I personally think EU just hasn't been pressured hard enough to try sincerely, but I wouldn't rule out that maybe EU is just systematically incapable.
Re:China attacks fishing boats in conquest of South China Sea by mytailorisrich on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:17AM (#25125494)
A common defense is a big integration step.

The military is the strong arm of the political power. Giving a military branch to the EU would seal the deal in terms of creating a federal state.

This is why such initiatives are very limited and often more symbolic than anything else (e.g. Franco-German units) because sovereignty and control are very tricky matters to handle.

Then some countries, notably Germany, have issues with military power for historical reasons.