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Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by freeopinion on Monday November 16, 2020 @05:48PM (#25118086)
I was once in a uni class where the prof was a very expensive consultant. He said that a large % of his jobs for companies like GM or Ford was to grab a notepad and walk the floor. He would ask line employees why they did things the way they did and what they would change. He got reams of suggestions, typed them up, submitted them and collected a giant paycheck.

Sometimes they were blindingly obvious things. One employee would drive two bolts, quickly change heads, then drive a third bolt. While the carcass advanced to the next station, the emloyee would change back to the original head and be ready for the next carcass. That employee's suggestion: Make all three bolts the same size so I don't have to change heads.

Of course, that is just a fun anecdote. All such efficiencies have been implemented long ago... for auto assembly. But the point is still valid. Your employees know a ton about your business. Even the ones who do the most mundane tasks. Listen to them. Or... pay a very expensive consultant to listen to them.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by lukifer on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:44PM (#25118589)
I'm reminded of Robert Anton Wilson's SNAFU Principle: "Communication is only possible between equals." [0] Formal hierarchies can create perverse incentives that discourage passing vital information up the chain, lest you make someone in power look bad, or stick your neck out as a troublemaker / "not a team player" / etc.

While a good manager can mitigate the problem by cultivating mutual trust, individually and culturally, the problem gets compounded when hierarchies become nested, and the org scales beyond the Dunbar Number.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNAFU_Principle

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by m463 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:25PM (#25132495)
yes, equals.

a consultant can talk to the ceo as an equal.

however, a consultant can also talk to the mail clerk as an equal.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by motohagiography on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:03PM (#25118234)
Third generation expensive consultant here. Clients don't pay you for your time, they pay you for theirs. There's a level of abstraction in orgs that you need to be able to navigate and influence. The Twitter hire I get, it's strategic. Man, we all got old.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by rorykoehler on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @12:22AM (#25120523)
Consultants are often hired to sign-off on decisions already made but impossible communicate as such without causing internal division.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by rahoulb on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:04AM (#25123251)
Absolutely this.

One of my friends runs a market research firm that works for big retailers. She says 90% of their work is about producing evidence for the decisions that have already been taken - so they can be implemented without causing complaints.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by reader_mode on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:27PM (#25119340)
I mean if you talk to a bunch of developers about what they would change in a project you will get valuable feedback. You will also get a lot of stuff that's just wrong, stuff that ignores the big picture and business goals. If you can recognising which is which that's worth a lot of money because acting on a bad idea can be far more costly than not acting on a good one.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by DangitBobby on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:39PM (#25119416)
You can also ask your developers to ponder this question ahead of time if you are interested in better answers.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by lmilcin on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:50PM (#25119488)
I guess asking one person rather than 200 is one way of getting less communication noise.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by manquer on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:23PM (#25119966)
knowing the right person to ask is hard.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by lmilcin on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:38AM (#25121778)
If you manage these people, it is literally your job to know.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by manquer on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:11PM (#25128215)
For senior management, it is usually it is your job to hire people who know or help you know( a.k.a consultants )

It is not humanly possible to be knowledgable in all the fields of people working directly or indirectly under you. Good managers are not always technically knowledgable . It is useful skill to have, neither it is most important nor is it even essential.

While bad managers tend not to have the knowledge, the worst managers are strong technically but don't have other critical skills needed for the job.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by lmilcin on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:24PM (#25155102)
Nobody expects you to know everything.

But as a manager, you need to know what your organization is doing and you need to know who to ask.

That is, by very definition, the job of a manager.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by freeopinion on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:04PM (#25118246)
Today, those three bolts are done by robots. Perhaps a modern very expensive consultant builds the AI to "interrogate" the robots for useful suggestions.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by gogopuppygogo on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:37PM (#25119018)
Do you really put it past a big company to have two robots with different screw heads on them for the three bolts?

Some maintenance guy who works the floor knows they don’t need two of them but no one will listen.

There is still room for a highly paid consultant.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by azinman2 on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:35PM (#25119391)
Is that actually true? My understanding is that there is still a lot of human labor necessarily baked in, and attempts to robotize everything largely have failed for a multitude of reasons (Tesla most famously so), but the most unsolvable is that of flexibility to change something fundamentally on a dime.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by ta76893547 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:28AM (#25125644)
I work in manufacturing automation so I may be biased, but attempts to robotize the manufacturing of a product that's being iterated on continuously (Tesla) or automating the assembly of lots of low-volume products is always going to go poorly.

Large car companies like GM or Ford hire automation companies to build automation equipment that meets a very specific spec for assembly steps, tolerances, rates, etc. They design components with ease of manufacturing as a significant factor. How something will be assembled is a constant consideration while designing. The product being run on these lines never really changes and human are only used when the the operations are so complex that the equipment doesn't pay for itself in (typically) 2 years. This is very rare, mostly people are only there to keep the machines filled with parts.

In the sequence of

  design -> automate -> manufacture 
manufacture needs to be much larger than the others have good margins. You can't iterate on design without iterating on automate, so if you change the design a lot it's probably best to avoid trying to automate.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by njarboe on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:06PM (#25119569)
Elon Musk said the thing that was really hard to automate was putting in wiring. Tesla has now developed a whole new type of wiring system that is much more amenable to automation.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by ancientworldnow on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:56PM (#25120121)
Tesla uses more workers per car in assembly than other major manufacturer. By a lot. They are not the people to look for in terms of automating auto assembly anecdotes despite their PR efforts.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by njarboe on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @12:30PM (#25126596)
Elon Musk spends a lot of money/effort not to get stuck in local maxima. I guess time will tell if Tesla's trying lots of new ideas works out for them.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by anchpop on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @01:05AM (#25120747)
I googled but didn't see anything, source?
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by agustif on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:43AM (#25121421)
The german auto-makers like BMW / VW build their own robots for assembly, I would look up there.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by njarboe on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @12:35PM (#25126669)
Tesla bought the german manufacturing automation company Grohmann Engineering in Jan. 2017, so there that also.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by throwaway201103 on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:44PM (#25118587)
Bolts may need to be different sizes due to the forces on them. Other solution might have been give the employee two wrenches, one each of the proper size.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by freeopinion on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:49PM (#25119102)
Classic.

Fictional employee. Fictional scenario. But you still assume that the employee isn't smart enough to know why bolts are different sizes and whether a bigger bolt could work in the place of the smaller bolts.

You assume you know more about this fictional car than the fictional employee actually (um, I mean fictionally) building it.

You should apply for management.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by jacobsenscott on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:16PM (#25119261)
There's really no reason to think the person turning the bolt knows what size the bolt needs to be. It isn't insulting to the employee, it just isn't there job. In the same way a web dev doesn't know how docker works, or how their OS's memory allocate works, or how a C programmer doesn't know how the hardware works, or how an EE can't write readable code to save their life.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by reificator on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:26PM (#25119990)
> In the same way a web dev doesn't know how docker works

Reductively it's CoW snapshots + chroot.

Guess I need to find a new job.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by jacobsenscott on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:30AM (#25157573)
Containers and a layered file system is closer to the mark
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by jhardy54 on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:39PM (#25120049)
f u l l s t a c k
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by jhardy54 on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:38PM (#25120044)
Two weeks ago I was writing a UI in React. Last week I was writing a Dockerfile. This week I'm building a circuit with a microcontroller.

People don't have to hyper-specialize to one specific role.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by dane-pgp on Monday November 16, 2020 @11:27PM (#25120260)
Weird flex, but okay.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by aurbano on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @06:41AM (#25122584)
How's that weird? It is perfect anecdotal counter-evidence to the claim it's responding to.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by dane-pgp on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:19AM (#25123385)
I interpreted the original claim as being:

> There's really no reason to think the person turning the bolt necessarily knows what size the bolt needs to be.

and also steel-manned the final sentence like this:

> In the same way a web dev doesn't need to know how docker works

As such, the (claimed) existence of one person who regularly uses very different skills doesn't disprove what I think jacobsenscott was trying to say.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by jhardy54 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @11:43AM (#25151286)
Sure, but there's no reason to believe the person turning the bolt necessarily doesn't know what size it needs to be.

Example using the same logic as the post we're discussing: Someone flips a coin in another room. It doesn't necessarily have to be heads, so we should assume it's tails.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by hajimemash on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:18AM (#25121289)
I thought this was cool.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by tstack on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:54PM (#25119506)
> But you still assume that the employee isn't smart enough to know why bolts are different sizes and whether a bigger bolt could work in the place of the smaller bolts.

It sounds like you are not familiar with this disaster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

There may be a very good reason things are the way they are.

Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by bravura on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:01PM (#25119536)
And apparently you a not familiar with what a cargo cult is?
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by tstack on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:24PM (#25119659)
Uh... what? The comment I replied to argued that a random employee might understand why a particular bolt was chosen. The walkway collapse is literally about bolts/nuts being changed around. That design change by a third party resulted in a disaster that killed over 100 people... Seems like appropriate evidence that a line worker would not actually understand design details. That's not to say they couldn't make a suggestion and feedback their experience. Of course they should do that.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by rightbyte on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:59PM (#25119176)
You can have the same hexagon head size for different thread diameters within the limits of what is silly.
Re:Twitter names famed hacker 'Mudge' as head of security by syshum on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:37PM (#25119400)
While that may be true, it is equally possible that the engineer did engineer thing with out giving a crap about the assembly thing, this happens alot...