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Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by kmeisthax on Monday November 16, 2020 @12:09PM (#25114125)
Right, but the law makes no mention of secret keys, it just says you can't go around anything that controls access to a copyright work; and you can't provide tools to do so. The actual legal definition of tools covers both actual technical purpose as well as marketed purpose. Rebranding, say, OBS as "Recorder for YouTube" and talking about how you can use it to get around YouTube's downloading protections by screencapping the entire video would possibly constitute a 1201 violation.

There's also another question of law, though: does 1201 apply when only the intent of the DRM has been circumvented, as opposed to it's technical scope? In other words, does pointing a camera at a monitor constitute circumvention of DRM under section 1201? Most DRM can't actually validate, say, that a human is watching instead of a camcorder. (Let's ignore pesky things like Cinavia which are more akin to post-piracy frustration techniques, and easily circumvented with any kind of Free media player.) Likewise, YouTube's rolling cipher can't really validate that it's not sitting inside of an instrumented browser that will dump whatever URLs it grabs. Our hypothetical OBS rebrand wouldn't actually be a 1201 violation unless the law specifically covers things that DRM can't technically enforce but would like to.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by mox1 on Monday November 16, 2020 @12:45PM (#25114630)
The rebuttal to your reasoning is in the letter. Basically a federal judge has previously ruled that utilizing a publicly available password is not circumvention of a copyright protection mechanism. The code containing the "sig" (as google calls it) or "rolling cipher" (as RIAA calls it) is available to anyone by viewing the JavaScript. This sig / cipher being public means it is not a copyright protection mechanism.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by sjy on Monday November 16, 2020 @11:52PM (#25120367)
The detail of the “publicly available password” case [1] is quite interesting. It’s not directly analogous to the YouTube system, but as the EFF points out, the RIAA’s reliance on German law has its own problems.

> When Petrolink learned that one of its largest customers, EOG Resources, might switch over to Digidrill’s visualization service, Petrolink took action. Instead of paying Digidrill for access to the corrected drilling data via LiveLog, Petrolink obtained a laptop running DataLogger – along with the corresponding USB security dongle – and then, after realizing DataLogger used an open source Firebird database, managed to gain access to the database by using Firebird's default administrator username and password. Armed with this access, Petrolink developed a program named “RIG WITSML” (dubbed “the scraper” or “the hack”) that could be installed on an MWD company’s computer running DataLogger in order to – in real time – query corrected drilling data from the DataLogger database and transfer that information to PetroVault for visualization. Petrolink then began installing this RIG WITSML program on MWD computers running DataLogger at more than 300 well sites.

[1] https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/4765801/digital-drilli...

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by toyg on Monday November 16, 2020 @12:53PM (#25114752)
> This sig / cipher being public means it is not a copyright protection mechanism.

I can see this as ending up with Youtube being forced to require sign-ins. Massive expense for Google. Then Youtube-dl adds one parameter for the password, and we're back to square one.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by thewakalix on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:28PM (#25115911)
Youtube wasn't behind the DMCA takedown, though. Do they even care about youtube-dl?
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by Analemma_ on Monday November 16, 2020 @03:15PM (#25116466)
Google quickly kills any iOS/Android app that offers offline playback functionality for YouTube, so I can't imagine they love youtube-dl. They probably only haven't made a stink because it might attract more attention to a tool primarily only known about in techhead circles.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by slimginz on Monday November 16, 2020 @03:36PM (#25116687)
I think the difference is that offline playback and background playback on iOS/Android can be unlocked through YouTube Premium so those apps directly interfere with YouTube's bottom line. YouTube-dl I don't really see as directly competing with that because it's not trivial to download a YouTube video from it to your phone.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by devit on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:34PM (#25117253)
You can use Firefox mobile and the "Video Background Play Fix" addon to disable the browser APIs that allow the background play blocking antifeature.

Alternatively, the NewPipe app available on F-Droid can be used to both play videos in the background and download them.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by arvindamirtaa on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:12PM (#25119246)
And given how unlikely people are in the wider non-technical audience to god-forbid, run a command line program, I guess they really just don't care.

They do take easily accessible apps that use youtube-dl under the hood pretty seriously. I guess it depends on how much of an effort it is for them vs how much of their bottom line ytdl is cutting into.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by DannyB2 on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:17PM (#25117090)
> Do they [YouTube/Google] even care about youtube-dl?

A downloaded video doesn't generate ad revenue.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by woofie11 on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:18PM (#25119628)
Yes it does. I go to the page (ad), copy the URL, and youtube-dl.

More critically, Youtube relies on network effects and people using it. Part of the reason we share family videos, educational content, and other things is so it's, well, shared. For me, the reasons to use Youtube-dl are:

1) People in bandwidth-constrained settings. If I post my videos, and colleagues in some countries can't watch them, I'm going elsewhere.

2) Remixing. If I can't make collages of family videos, I'm going elsewhere.

Youtube can serve masters like me, where it's an effective platform for sharing videos I want people to watch, and where the goal is dissemination. It can serve masters like the RIAA and the MPAA, where the goal is monetization and control. It will have a hard time serving both.

I suspect if it tries, people like me will go to someone who caters to us. A YouYesYouNoNotTheRIAAYesYOUTube. If we do, I think there will be enough of a network to start to syphon people off, and eventually, cat videos and Aunt Alice will be on YYYNNTRYYT.com, while corporate video will be on DRMed Youtube.

At that point, we'll have a replay.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by fuzxi on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:51PM (#25119803)
>I go to the page (ad), copy the URL, and youtube-dl.

Youtube-dl has an integrated search function, so you actually don't have to open the video in a browser at all.

That's secondary to the rest of your comment, but I thought it was worth noting.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by Wowfunhappy on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:11PM (#25119901)
Perhaps more importantly, the number of people using youtube-dl because it allows you to watch videos without ads almost certainly pales in comparison to the number of people just using adblockers. Youtube-dl makes you wait.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by minusf on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:46AM (#25121432)
there is no waiting when youtube-dl is used from mpv or similar.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by wongarsu on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:15PM (#25119257)
Downloaded videos often get remixed into other videos that generate ad revenue. Commentary, reaction videos and compilations are substantial parts of youtube.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by minusf on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:48AM (#25121441)
i often watch youtube videos from mpv exactly to get away from those distractions.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by trashburger on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:21PM (#25119956)
How many people downloaded Shake It Off with youtube-dl vs. the people who watched it from the official YouTube app or stock Google Chrome? youtube-dl does not nearly threaten their revenue in any tangible way.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by ineedasername on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:35PM (#25119001)
Yes, but is there any indication that they work against youtube-dl in some specific way? Adversarial actions like changing youtube to render youtube-dl non-functional?
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by resfirestar on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:10PM (#25118301)
Youtube has to listen to the RIAA's demands because music and music videos are a huge portion of their traffic. The music industry could decide to move all that to Spotify if they chose.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by verall on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:09PM (#25118813)
Yea ha ha.

They took that poison pill already, I really, really doubt they ever new pop music stops being part of youtube in the future, the audience is too large. It would be like them taking music off of the radio because people could record it on reel-to-reels. They might stomp around a bit and try to use the law to get what they want, but when push comes to shove the big labels will keep their music on youtube.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by rhizome on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:53PM (#25119807)
The RIAA/NARM/etc. needs YouTube WAY more than vice-versa.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by arvindamirtaa on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:09PM (#25119231)
No they cannot. Music videos that aren't on Youtube don't generate much in the way of traffic anywhere else. Artists have tried it and failed.

They absolutely need eachother and can't afford to be nasty to eachother.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by belorn on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:46PM (#25118609)
I am not that afraid that google would require sign-ins for everything. Even google with its massive market dominance should be pretty scared of given such a clear opening for a competitor, and being accessible without a login is a huge feature in order to get market share quickly compared to a competitor that does not.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by arvindamirtaa on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:13PM (#25119250)
Not to mention, all that ad revenue.

People will literally just give up and straight up do something else if content is behind a auth-wall.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by jtbayly on Monday November 16, 2020 @01:20PM (#25115090)
You already have to sign in to view some videos, don’t you? Does YT-dL not have a way to handle those right now?
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by nonbirithm on Monday November 16, 2020 @01:34PM (#25115255)
It does, but it's broken.

https://github.com/ytdl-org/youtube-dl/issues/23860

The developers are not responding to the issue, and from what I understand it is borderline impossible to fix, because there is an entire security team behind the Google login protection. The only workaround is to login with a browser and copy the cookies from it to youtube-dl.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by xigency on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:07PM (#25115659)
> The only workaround is to login with a browser and copy the cookies from it to youtube-dl.

That's really easy to do with postman.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by justinclift on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:50PM (#25116168)
"Postman" seems like a pretty generic name.

Looking quickly online, maybe you're meaning this one?

https://www.postman.com

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by drdeca on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:08PM (#25118273)
I'm pretty sure that is what they mean, yes. It is a nice tool. Lets you write HTTP(S) templates with parameters and whatnot, save them in groups, send them, handle the response, etc.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by pyuser583 on Monday November 16, 2020 @10:17PM (#25119940)
Funny. I initially read that as “The Postman” - kind of like “The Batman.”

And your response is regarding whether it should be referred to in the definite article.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by jimbob45 on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:18PM (#25115790)
>postman

It just works. Every time. It’s gotta be one of the most unappreciated tools out there right now.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by imtringued on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:56PM (#25117485)
Why not simply create a youtube-login command that does nothing but launch an electron instance that lets you login into youtube and then returns the cookie?

youtube-dl could then call that command to obtain the cookie.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by TechBro8615 on Monday November 16, 2020 @05:08PM (#25117652)
There’s a good chance that behavior would result in a CAPTCHA.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by naniwaduni on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:27PM (#25119685)
The idea, I think, is that it literally launches a browser to let a human do the whole thing.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by Siira on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:08PM (#25118275)
You can automate fetching Chrome’s cookies. This is generally very useful for scraping.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by h_anna_h on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @02:22AM (#25121053)
https://github.com/blackjack4494/yt-dlc is maintained by someone who responds to issues.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by OJFord on Monday November 16, 2020 @01:23PM (#25115131)
Do you? I've never tried to watch any that have required it.

Maybe there's Red-only content that isn't advertised/recommended to non-subscribers?

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by monokh on Monday November 16, 2020 @01:30PM (#25115216)
Content with a certain age threshold triggers login. The last time I looked at this, embedding these videos was still possible without logging in. So there are definitely ways in accessing the content without authentication.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by OJFord on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:29PM (#25119697)
Hm. If embedding works maybe my ad-blocking is sufficient; or I just haven't come across any that require it. I mostly just watch woodworkers/machinists/electronics/etc. Sort of conceivable it could be age restricted but would also be surprising.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by fuzxi on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:54PM (#25119816)
There's also members-only content on some channels that requires a paid subscription to access.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by m-p-3 on Monday November 16, 2020 @06:13PM (#25118327)
It's already there, you can authenticate using a cookie file if you want.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by pilif on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:33PM (#25115982)
Or they just start to use Wildvine protection for their videos
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by minusf on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @06:27AM (#25122487)
i am already getting a "please log in" nag screen almost every time i open a video link (i block all cookies from youtube).
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by jjeaff on Monday November 16, 2020 @01:05PM (#25114941)
What is considered publicly available?

I suppose right clicking and selecting view source is ok, but reverse engineering a code out of a hardware chip isn't?

Because any kind of DRM basically has a key in the possession of the user. There are just different levels of difficulty to read that key.

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by ineedasername on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:33PM (#25118991)
as well as marketed purpose

Yes, it would be problematic if, for example, Samsung was marketing their latest flagship as "Our dark-light technology means you can take nearly pixel-perfect video of movies while you watch them in the movie theatre!"

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by feanaro on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:14PM (#25117062)
> Likewise, YouTube's rolling cipher can't really validate that it's not sitting inside of an instrumented browser that will dump whatever URLs it grabs.

What is the criteria for differentiating between youtube-dl and a "browser"?

Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by sjy on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:22PM (#25117131)
In this case a “browser” is a YouTube client that copyright holders are happy with, because it doesn’t provide any simple way of saving offline copies.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by feanaro on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @06:13AM (#25122385)
I agree. But that's not a viable legal definition.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by kevin_thibedeau on Monday November 16, 2020 @08:16PM (#25119264)
There are exceptions. Access for the disabled is one of them and youtube-dl can very much be the basis for an accessibility tool.
Re:YouTube-dl's repository has been restored by zensavona on Monday November 16, 2020 @05:01PM (#25117558)
Just re-upload it and change the readme to define "youtube-dl" and "Youtube Digital Library"