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Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by ekianjo on Friday November 13, 2020 @08:50PM (#25089616)
> there's actually a fair amount of understanding and support for the government

You have to thank disinformation and mass brainwashing for that. The fact that there is virtually no opposition in China says how far they have gone to control people.

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by 8note on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:54PM (#25089892)
It could also be that they're right and people have considered the alternatives.

Eg. The lack of opposition to the idea that water is wet does not imply that water is in fact dry and everyone is just brain washed

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by ekianjo on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:41PM (#25090126)
> Eg. The lack of opposition to the idea that water is wet does not imply that water is in fact dry and everyone is just brain washed

There's no world in which no opposition actually exists when there is a little bit of freedom. You can observe it even in small groups where people can express themselves: you won't have a single convergence of opinions on every topic.

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by Johnjonjoan on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:15PM (#25090248)
There is in fact quite a lot of opposition to the idea that water is wet. Just Google 'is water wet?'.
Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by simonh on Saturday November 14, 2020 @07:04AM (#25091808)
Theres no way to know if they have considered the alternatives, because it is illegal to even present or discuss any alternatives, and illegal to ask them about it.
Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by vkou on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:06PM (#25089689)
If your response to people holding differing opinions is that 'They are obviously stupid and misinformed and brainwashed', I don't think that any productive discussion can be had. I can, after all, say the same thing about anyone who disagrees with me.

Attack their argument on its own merits.

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by ekianjo on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:44PM (#25090135)
I like when people strawman my points by adding 'stupid' where it was not written and implied anywhere. Smart people can be equally brainwashed.

You cannot have productive discussion with people who have no access to different sources of information. The CCP completely controlling education, media and the Internet makes most people in China in a very bad position to access facts versus pure State propaganda. Add to that a strong social pressure to conform and punishment for divergence and yes, you have mass brainwashing going on.

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by vkou on Saturday November 14, 2020 @01:02AM (#25090602)
It's great that you can recognize obvious biases in the information available in another culture.

Now, do you not think that we have any relevant prevailing biases, created by our education, media, history, culture, economic system, and government? [1] Ones that are so deeply ingrained in our society, that we don't even notice them?

If we were to apply your rubric, that would make arguments between people from different cultures completely unproductive - with each person hailing from each culture being able to dismiss the other's out of hand.

The argument you are dismissing as brainwashing seems pretty straightforward to me. It's entirely possible, even reasonable for economic stability to be a goal worth pursuing for government. You may find it anathema, but that viewpoint isn't particularly privileged, in the global space of ideas.

[1] That's a rhetorical question - of course we do. They are incredibly obvious to anyone who's lived in a few different countries.

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by ekianjo on Saturday November 14, 2020 @12:13PM (#25093671)
> Now, do you not think that we have any relevant prevailing biases, created by our education, media, history, culture, economic system, and government? [1] Ones that are so deeply ingrained in our society, that we don't even notice them?

The difference is the key though. In the West we know that we are brainwashed at some level, because we can observe it happening around us with people who share different viewpoints or cultures.

However, in a country where there's only one discourse that is accepted, you can mistake your own brainwashing for the actual truth because nothing is out there to make you think otherwise.

Re:Xi Jinping personally halted Ant's IPO after Jack Ma snub... by dontcarethrow2 on Saturday November 14, 2020 @10:41AM (#25092934)
Great point. I find culture itself is 'brainwashing'. It is just influence on your thoughts/who you are. The term brainwashing brings a good amount of negativity and polarism. It's not something that happens to 'us' but 'them'.

We are all brainwashed to an extent. Knowing that can at least prepare you to bring a good scrub and soap on your washings.